Abschussmeldung Question.

[Richard Mills]

I have 2 NJG1 Abschussmeldungen from 1941 in my collection. I think the reports are complete however, I have seen over the past few years similar Abschussmeldungen but in slightly different compilation.

Both of my Abschussmeldungem consist of the following:

Gefechtbericht - Signed by the claimant.
Zeugenbericht - Signed by the witness.
Abschussmeldung - Signed by the claimant.
Stellungnahme - Signed by the Staffelkapitain
Stellungnahme - Signed by the Gruppenkommandeur
Additionally, one of the reports also contains 2 witness reports from Lufwaffe ground personnel.

I have also seen examples where the compilation differs from the above:

No Stellungnahme signed by the Staffelkapitain.
Gefechtbericht, Zeugenbericht & Abschussmeldung signed F.d. R. I.V. by the Staffelkapitain and not the crew (and the Stellungnahme signed by the Staffelkapitain is also absent)

This leads myself to think that numerous copies of each Abschussmeldung were made however, I can find very little detailed information on these documents.

Any collector knowledge or information on existing examples in collections which can shed a little light on the formats and differing compilation of these documents will be very well received indeed.

Thank you in anticipation.
Regards Richard.

[Richard Mills]

No one able to help with this request?

Any pointers whatsoever will be very well received indeed.

Regards Richard.

[Larry deZeng]

Fighters are not my field of interest, but it has always been my understanding - right or wrong - that Hans Ring was able to assemble and maintain a majority of the Abschußmeldungen that survived the war. He did this through the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's and at that time was the primary source for this information. Subsequently, Dr. Jochen Prien worked with Ring and gradually became the foremost authority on Abschußmeldungen, their composition and how to authenticate them. This isn't giving you an answer, but I hope it may fill in some background and point you in the right direction. Dr. Prien is a frequent visitor here.

L.

[Richard Mills]

Larry

Thank you as always for your help.

There does seem to be a decidedly large 'black hole' on detailed information on these reports. That said, I was expecting at least a little input from members with examples in their personal collections and I know from many dealer sites that there are many examples of these reports available on the market.

Personally, I think these reports are very underrated. The examples in my collections are signed by Lent (Diamonds) Schoenert (Oakleaves) Lippe-Weissenfeld (Oakleaves) Ehle (KC) Richter (KC) & Greisen (DKiG) The chance to obtain these documents with these wartime signatures is in my book at least, well worth the investment.

Still hopeful in anticipation for some help with examples from private collections.

Regards Richard.

[hopsi12]

Hi Richard
I was just checking Abschussmeldungen out of my collection, starting with may 1940 from ZG 26. My papers are slightly different, as early documents were instead using the term "Zeugenbericht" the wording "Luftzeugenkampfbericht" and most include a request for confirmation addressd to R.L.M (L.P.) signed by the the Groupcommander.
Therefore all !!! my Abschussmeldungen have in addition this document/confirmation from "Der Reichsminister der Luftwaffe und Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe" also recording the "Abschuß" as personal kill of claimant in line with the relevant number of victims of Staffel, Gruppe and Geschwader.

Hopefully this helps, check 6
regards Stephan

[JohnnyB]

In order to chalk up a safe kill it was needed :

1. to prepare a report on the progress of the air combat (Gefechtsbericht)
2. to have a witness for the air combat (Zeugenbericht)
(Most important - no witness - also no claim)

Then the Staffelkapitän listens to the testimony of the claimant and witnesses and prepare a report (Stellungnahme), signed it - then this report is forwarded to the the next highest level, the Gruppenkommandeur. He also signed it (Stellungnahme).

All this was sent to the Reichsminister der Luftwaffe and he had to decide whether the air victory was recognized.
If all points were met, the claim mostly was recognized.

I think that in the most other air-forces this was the procedure to get an recognized aerial victory.

Regards,

JohnnyB

[hopsi12]

In addition to that what has been said and being a little more precise regarding the slightly different compilation and number of documents out of my collection:
Most of my Abschussmeldungen consist of the following:

1. Abschußmeldung (signed by the claimant)
2. Luftzeugenkampfbericht/Zeugenbericht (signed by the witness)
3. Gefechtsbericht des Zeugen (signed by the same or other witness)
4. Antrag auf Anerkennung (signed by claimant)
5. Stellungnahme des Zwischenvorgesetzten (signed by Staffelkapitän or Gruppenkommandeur)
6. Gefechtsmeldung der Gruppe (signed by the Gruppenkommandeur)
7. Anerkennung des R.L.M (L.P.) (signed by some general)

Best regards
Stephan

[Hans Nauta]

Dear all,

I do have copies of Abschussmeldungen including the already described pages, but also with:
Map of the route of the night fighter and the bomber and crash place signed by the JLO (Jagdleit Offizier) of the ground radar station and the literal description of the radio traffic between nightfighter and JLO signed by an Uffz who was involved in maintaining radio contact.
These pages don't have a title.

Regards,
Hans Nauta

[Richard Mills]

Gents, thank you very much indeed for your input into this original question.

Since posting my thread, I have now obtained an Abschussmeldung from 1944, concerning 6./JG1. On this example, there is no signature from the Staka, (probably as he is the claimant) however the remainder of the paperwork follows the path of the earlier Abschussmeldungen I have described.

I am aware of a NJG1 Abschussmeldung which has the Gefechtbericht, Zeugenbericht & Abschussmeldung signed F.d. R. I.V. by the Staffelkapitain and not the crew. I am tempted to think this was possibly a file copy retained by the Staffel and that the copy with all pages containing the signatures of the relevant personnel were despatched to the RLM for verification.

Any thoughts on this?

Regards Richard.

[hopsi12]

IMO copies were kept within Staffel, Gruppe or Stab for recording and only originals docs were sent to RLM
regards Stephan