23 July 1942, LW in North Brittany

[Jérémie Tarpon]

Hello,

On 23 July 1942, RAF Fighter Command carried out a Mass Rhubarb on the northern coast of Brittany. Spitfires from 310 Sqdn claimed a Ju 88 destroyed on the ground at Lannion, but 4 Spitfires of 234 Sqdn were lost to Fw 190s in the Landerneau - Lesneven - Guissény area and 2 Whirlwinds of 263 Sqdn were shot down by Bf 109s in the sea off Morlaix (these were two different combats). Looking at the German side, I have two questions.

The easy one (I hope!) first. Does someone know the identity of the Ju 88 set on fire at Lannion?

The more difficult question now. Who shot down the two Whirlwinds?
First of all, I have not been able to identify a Bf 109 unit that may have operated over Brittany at this period.
Tony Wood lists three LW claims on this day:

Hptm. Rudolf Pflanz 1./JG 2 Spitfire Reference: JG 2 NLRF Letter
Hptm. Rudolf Pflanz 1./JG 2 Spitfire Reference: JG 2 NLRF Letter
Fw. Georg Hippel 8./JG 2 Spitfire Reference: JG 2 NLRF Letter

Fw Hippel flying from Brest on a 8./JG 2 Fw 190 is most probably responsible for one of the 234 Sqdn Spitfires (another one - P/O Thalbitzer - was reported downed by Flak).
Hptm Pflanz may have flown a Bf 109, but he was with I./JG 2 that was normally operating over Normandy (quite far from the Rhubarb area). On the other hand, there are no other RAF losses that match his claims.
So was Rudy Pflanz over Brittany on that day and was he engaged against 234 or 263 Sqdn? While the two missing Spitfires may have been destroyed by Flak or in a collision, the Whirlwinds were shot down by German fighters and it is difficult to misidentify Whirlwinds for Spitfires.

Best regards,

Jérémie

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Jérémie

Prein has the following claims by JG 2 on that date:

Leutnant Wolf von Bülow of 5./JG 2 a Spitfire at 16:18 (4)
Leutnant Karl-Heinz Bänsch of 5./JG 2 a Spitfire (1)
Leutnant Wolf von Bülow of 5./JG 2 a Spitfire (5)
Leutnant Karl-Heinz Bänsch of 5./JG 2 a Spitfire at 16:24 (2)

Feldwebel Georg Hippel of 8./JG 2 a Spitfire at 16:32 (3)

Unteroffizier Friedrich Steinmüller of 11./JG 2 a Whirlwind at 16:19 (1)
Unteroffizier Friedrich Steinmüller of 11./JG 2 a Whirlwind at 16:21 (2)

Unfortunately no locations are given. I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

[Jérémie Tarpon]

Thank you Leo,

Be sure that it helps!

Best wishes,

Jérémie

[brewerjerry]

Hi
Always a confusing combat, as the 263Sqn diary does not match up with the lufwaffe claim, of one pilot shooting down both whirlwinds.

I have confusing locations,

1) mid channel by fighters.

2) by FW-190's near Morlaix.

3) From Sqn records ...

'Currie last seen with four other a/c near the french coast'

'saw a whirlwind followed by two 109's, section turned in that direction, saw two more 109's and then whirlwind hit the sea'.

'later 10 mins from the english coast, a whirlwind seen with three 109's on it's tail.'

Steinmüller's claims are only two minutes apart,the 263Sqn pilots saw the combats 10 minutes apart,

I personally think there is still some doubt on who actually shot them down.
cheers
Jerry

[Mikkel Plannthin]

Just posted this thread
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=107055

only to realise that you gentlemen were already debating the very same topic.

One question: what is the source reporting Thalbitzer downed by flak?

Neither the forms 540/541 of 234 nor his father's biography in which he cites a letter from Thalbitzer are clear on this.

http://www.danishww2pilots.dk/pilots.php?id=91


Regards

Mikkel Plannthin

[Fairlop]

Hi Jérémie,

310 Sqn claimed 1-0-1 Ju 88 on the ground at Lannion. FL/ Foit and F/O Hartman shared for destroying, and Sgt Stivar damaged one.
Ju 88s were probably from 3.(F)/123 .

Michal

[Jérémie Tarpon]

Hello Mikkel,

I have not found any definitive statement that P/O Thalbitzer was shot down by Flak rather than by fighters, but the reports I have read point in that direction. Since the 23 July 1942 Rhubarb also involved 263 Squadron, the corresponding Composite Report may be found in the Appendices of this latter unit ORB (AIR 27/1551). Regarding 234 Squadron, it says:

234 and 263 rendezvoused Lizard at 300 feet dropping to sea level. Crossed French coast W. of Plouescat at 0 feet. Turned SSE then port [starboard?] to Landerneau, NNW recrossing French coast at Guisseny [Guissény]. Hits registered on a water tower, radio masts S. of Lesneven, H.T. cables and masts and a signal box and goods trucks at Landerneau. 4 FW 190s seen N. of Lesneven at 0 feet flying SE as squadron came out of target area. Attacks from astern made by these E/A, which continued to mid-Channel. Black 2 (Sgt. Sebire, Australian) attacked one E/A from astern at long range, no result seen and carried out further head on attack on a FW 190. Hits being registered E/A breaking away with black smoke pouring out. Red 1 (P/O. Thalbitzer, Denmark) was hit and seen to make crash landing 5 miles NW of Landernau, where light flak was encountered. His starboard wing crumpled up. Yellow 2 (Sgt. Farmer) seen to bale out some 10 miles off French coast N. of Guisseny. Nothing seen of attacks on Sgt. Fuggle or P/O. Webster (NZ) who are missing. One Whirlwind seen by Sgt. Hinds (Black 1) S. of Lannilis flying West.

Looking at a map of Brittany shows that the Fw 190s were met near Lesneven almost certainly after P/O Thalbitzer crash-landed NW of Landerneau. Adding the mention of light Flak in this very sector, I think we can reasonnably conclude that Thalbitzer was hit from the ground.

As far as I am concerned, the puzzling fact is the presence on the north coast of Brittany of aircraft from 5. and 11./JG 2 that were usually operating at that time in the Normandy and Somme areas.

Best wishes and thanks to Fairlop for his additions about the 310 and 313 Squadrons.

Jérémie

[Mikkel Plannthin]

Jérémie
Thank you for this thorough answer.

Having plotted the positions into a map, I see your point and understand fully your conclusion. Roughly translated Thalbitzer himself states only that:

suddenly noticed that my machine started to sputter, like I could not get it to turn left. The machine had apparently been hit, at least I lost altitude and I tried an emergency landing.

Just to point out that he was not sure himself. On the other hand in the same account he states, that he shot down 5 or 6 e/a chasing him...

Regards

Mikkel

[Jérémie Tarpon]

Hello Mikkel,

I did not suspected that Thalbitzer had written an account of his crash-landing in Brittany. Can you tell us more about what I suppose to be a letter sent from his PoW camp? Is there some additional information about his last operation and his time in France before being captured by the Germans?

Best wishes,

Jérémie

[Mikkel Plannthin]

Jérémie
Just a quick reply as I am heading of to work. I can confirm that it is a letter written from the PoW camp. It has no addition information on his time in France following the capture, but a little information on the mission.

As hinted in the reply above, I doubt the trustworthiness of the information given in the letter.

It is part of a book his father wrote and published in 1945.

Regards

Mikkel