Luftwaffe P51 shot down by US P47 ?

[Alex Smart]

Hi,

Some where i have read that one of those Luftwaffe Captured P51 Mustang's was shot down by a US P47 Thunderbolt.
IIRC the Mustang came down somewhere in Austria.
Again IIRC this was in early 1945.

Any details or info will be welcomed.

Alex

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

Just as an update .

It now looks as though the event was not P51 v P47 but P51 v P38.

The P38 was from the 82nd Fighter Group.

Has anyone details of the encounter ?

alex

[kaki3152]

Alex,


This is the account from Adorimini:"About 30 miles southwest of Linz,Austria, an early model P-51 (B or C) painted olive drab made an attack out of the clouds on several 95th Sq P-38s,after tailing them for some time...Lt. Coulson turned head on into the P-51 to turn it away...Hwever, on this time, the P-51 opened fire,at a range of of 4,000 feet (sic) and continued firing. Coulson finally fired one short burst and saw strikes on its canopy and engine. The Mustang rolled over,went straight down and crashed into a mountain"
It was noted by the P-38 pilots that the Mustang had no national insignia nor a red spinner which idntified the 15th AFs P-51s. A check with all the Mustang units in Italy confirmed that the plane was not one of theirs

[George Hopp]

Sorry, but the entire incident sounds unbelievable. German P-51s tended to be brightly marked, and carried very large Balkan crosses, so they wouldn't be shot down by German fighters. And, they stayed well away from any combat because they didn't carry ammunition, and didn't want to lose a valuable a/c.

This all sounds much like all those B-17s that tried to tuck into the formations of other B-17s and then supposedly fired on them. It turned out to be US B-17s that had lost the other planes in their element, looking for friendly protection. If you look at some of the German gun camera footage, you'll see that the the fighters just barrel in and fire, and it's almost impossible to see national markings. In other words, a German crew in a B-17 would be just as likely to be shot down as an American one. The same goes for that "Luftwaffe P51" that you heard about.

[Alex Smart]

Hi,

Thank you for the replies.

The pilot, 2Lt. Eldon E. Coulson was indeed credited with the shooting down of an axis P51 on the 29th October 1944.
This turned out to be his one and only kill (as far as I can find out).

Further to which I see that he was killed in action on the 7th November 1944 MACR 9696 (Anyone got a copy they can scan and send to me please ?).

The date 7th November 1944 is not however laid down in stone.

For the AFHRA and NARA sites has his date of death as being Thursday 8th November 1945.

This date on their sites (and on their documents possibly ) cannot be correct as the war in Europe was long ended by November of 1945.
MACR date KIA 7-11-1944.

Coulson was not a POW nor wounded AFAIK, so how do they arrive at 1945?

All for now

Alex

[kaki3152]

Alex/George,

Yes, P-51 Mustangs flow by Rechlin and 2nd/ Vband der OKL were painted with bright yellow markings to help in identification.

Possible explanations:

The P-51 was flown by the Hungarian AF. There are some hints that the HAF captured a flyable P-51 Mustang, but no more information has surfaced(at least that I know of).
Mistaken identity, RAF Mustang? There was one USAAF 15th AF P-51 casualty on October 29th,1944. It was a P-51D from the 332nd FG, not a razorback P-51 B/C.
There are some things about WWII we will never know.

Carlos

[Alex Smart]

Hi Carlos,

the 332FG a/c would that be 44-14465 ?

Any info on RAF, RAAF or SAAF P51 loose on this date ?

Thanks

Alex

[Charles Foree]

A flyable P-51 would have been a valuable commodity to the Axis, particularly in the reconnaissance role after allied numbers began to overwhelm the Luftwaffe. Maybe the pilot "shadowing" the 38s never actually spotted them until the last moment? Certainly taking such a prize into combat would be an unpopular decision with his superiors...

Were any D. 520s lost that day?

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Hi,

The pilot, 2Lt. Eldon E. Coulson was indeed credited with the shooting down of an axis P51 on the 29th October 1944.
This turned out to be his one and only kill (as far as I can find out).

Further to which I see that he was killed in action on the 7th November 1944 MACR 9696 (Anyone got a copy they can scan and send to me please ?).

The date 7th November 1944 is not however laid down in stone.

For the AFHRA and NARA sites has his date of death as being Thursday 8th November 1945.

This date on their sites (and on their documents possibly ) cannot be correct as the war in Europe was long ended by November of 1945.
MACR date KIA 7-11-1944.

Coulson was not a POW nor wounded AFAIK, so how do they arrive at 1945?

All for now

Alex

The official date of death in American databases is often not the true death date. Most of the times it is one year and one day after the date the man went MIA. I have found numerous cases of this both for aircrews and ship crews (more of the latter).
Crews of missing submarines were often declared dead only after the war, when they can't be found in Japanese POW camps.

So this pilot went MIA on 7 Nov 1944 and as no trace of him was found and no proof that he died on this day he was declared dead one year and a day after the date: 8 Nov 1945

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Charles Foree

A flyable P-51 would have been a valuable commodity to the Axis, particularly in the reconnaissance role after allied numbers began to overwhelm the Luftwaffe.

Another point of view is that it would have been a complete liability. There were quite enough friendly fire incidents on all sides when flying one's own machines, let alone enemy ones. And that's leaving aside the spares, fuel and lubricants you'd need to secure from wrecks etc.

My guess is that this was yet another case of mistaken identity, as so often throughout the war.