Fighter performance; F-4 vs MiG-21; actual plane analysis

[michael82]

I have already read "Fighter performance in practice; Phantom vs MiG-21"
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fighter-Performa...99190218752954

and I'd like to see something similar like F-14 vs 23....

[mars]

Why want to compare F-4 to Mig-21? F-4 is a fighter designed to gain air superioty, Mig-21 is a short-range intercepter design for intercept heavy bombers, they are entire different aircrafts, it would like compare an apple to an orange

[NickM]

Originally Posted by mars

Why want to compare F-4 to Mig-21? F-4 is a fighter designed to gain air superioty, Mig-21 is a short-range intercepter design for intercept heavy bombers, they are entire different aircrafts, it would like compare an apple to an orange

Exactly the Phantom is a big, ugly, smokey SLEDGEHAMMER of a multirole plane; the Mig-21 is more like small, fast stiletto...I guess a more fair comparison would be F4 vs Mig-23/27;

[michael82]

Both F-4 and MiG-21 are top performers flown from the late '50s to the '80s and more. Exactly they are not in the same weight class and I think first models of both are interceptors (F-4B or J).
It is hard to find some fighters that is interesting to compare that are the same??
Anyway, most myths about their performances are gone with this paper...

[michael82]

Originally Posted by NickM

Exactly the Phantom is a big, ugly, smokey SLEDGEHAMMER of a multirole plane; the Mig-21 is more like small, fast stiletto...I guess a more fair comparison would be F4 vs Mig-23/27;

Phantom was holder of every speed, climb, ceiling record... That's why comparison is interesting, beside they fought in wars...

[michael82]

It seems that nobody agrees on these a/c abilities, agencies, air forces...not even Israelis

[glider1]

Originally Posted by NickM

Exactly the Phantom is a big, ugly, smokey SLEDGEHAMMER of a multirole plane; the Mig-21 is more like small, fast stiletto...I guess a more fair comparison would be F4 vs Mig-23/27;

Or the Mig vs the F5e and Mirage

[michael82]

F-5 is beautiful light a/c but Mach 0.5 slower, 1/3 lower thrust/weight, maybe overall better... while Mirage, I would say, also very useful, but all performances are significantly lower...
21 and F-4 were war competitors and both top performers, very similar in perf.

[John Beaman]

The two planes were designed for different missions. The MiG-21 was designed as a rapid response point interceptor against bombers. By being small and simple the manufacturing is easy and you can make a lot of them and spread them around. The F-4 was designed as a long range bomber interceptor to defend the fleet from aerial threats a long way from the fleet; hence the two engines, large fuel capacity (for those thirsty engines) and a pilot and a radar/weapons guy. Very different missions. Later, both of course, were adopted for all kinds of missions never dreamed of in the original design specs.

The only reason to compare is, as someone remarked, they faught against each other in several conflicts.

[Six Nifty .50s]

This is not unlike comparing a Spitfire with a Mosquito. The performance envelopes were somewhat different, but one of them was obviously more versatile than the other.

The MiG-21 was a short-range interceptor with the same strengths and weaknesses as the F-5: both were valuable for local defense, but with limited offensive capability, little room to carry advanced sensors (radars, jamming equipment, etc), and the pilots were not able to fight very far from their own bases. Their success or failure was largely dependent upon the ground radar station that was controlling them. Even with air refueling equipment, both the MiG-21 and the F-5 required too much tanker support and ECM aircraft to be practical as long-range escort fighters.

Robert Wilcox in his Scream of Eagles gives a good background and overview on the creation of TOPGUN, and through various interviews he provides a step-by-step explanation of how U.S. Navy F-4 pilots learned how to outmanuever smaller jets. The navy's brand of "dissimilar" air combat training included the practice of intentionally throwing the Phantom out of control to gain the upper hand. The original TOPGUN instructor pilots noted that this type of advanced dogfight training was not intended for F-8 pilots because they did not need it, although some Crusader pilots asked to be reassigned to Phantoms after the F-4s began to consistently defeat the smaller F-8 during training exercises.