Ask for advice: the German bombing of Poltava Perspective

[chinapzw]

Quote:"21 June 1944
145 of 163 B-17s begin shuttle bombing missions between the United Kingdom and bases in the USSR. 72 P-38 Lightnings, 38 P-47 Thunderbolts and 57 P-51 Mustangs escort the B-17s to the target ( synthetic oil plant 51°29′00″N 013°53′36″E  /  51.4833333°N 13.89333°E  / 51.4833333; 13.89333 at Ruhland , Germany ); 123 B-17s bomb the primary target, 21 bomb the marshaling yard 51°27′32″N 013°30′57″E  /  51.45889°N 13.51583°E  / 51.45889; 13.51583 at Elsterwerda and a lone B-17 bombs the marshaling yard 51°18′34″N 013°16′46″E  /  51.30944°N 13.27944°E  / 51.30944; 13.27944 at Riesa , Germany due to a bomb rack malfunction.
20 to 30 Luftwaffe fighters attack the force; in the resulting battle a P-51B (43-6784, 4th FG, 335th FS) and six German fighters are destroyed; an F model B-17 42-3490 , 385th Bombardment Group, 549th Bomb Squadron piloted by Matthew Totter is damaged by flack and loses three engines on the flight and flies to Sweden where it is interned and later converted to SE-BAN , a Swedish airliner."

Who can tell me to attack the forces Luftwaffe designation, more fighting?


Quote:"What was unknown at the time was that after the raid on Ruhland, the attacking B-17s were being shadowed from a distance by a Luftwaffe Heinkel He-111 bomber, which identified the Ukrainian airfields where they landed. [ 7 ] On the night of 21 June the Combat Wing of B-17s which earlier landed at Poltava sustained severe losses as the result of an enemy air attack on the airfield."

May I ask who is driving Pathfinder aircraft? Under which units?

Quote:"At 0030 hours Pathfinder aircraft released flares directly above the airfield and 10 minutes later the first bombs were dropped....Of the 73 B-17s which had landed at Poltava, 47 were destroyed and most of the remainder severely damaged."

Ask: German perspective, the details of air strikes?

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

With regard to the Luftwaffe aircraft that spotted the American Formations heading for Russian Territory. As you say a He 111. Also I have seen this recorded as a Ju88 and an He177.
From what I have read it would seem that the first a/c followed for quite some time, then a second a/c took up the task and indeed followed right up to the Russian Air Base. This was indeed a pure chance interception by the Luftwaffe and indeed paid off very well by the follow up by the attacking bombers that same night.

Although the Americans had used the Russian Bases earlier by the 15th AAF this was the first 8th AAF mission to Russia.But the mission was "Frantic II".

Bomber Groups were the 95th;96th;100th;388th;390th;452nd; Of the 163 B17,s despatched, 20 B17's returned to the UK early,( IIRC never even crossing into Europe).
114 bombed Rhuland (777x 500lb GP bombs and 295x100lb incendiary bombs.
26 bombed Elsterwerda (6 x 500lb GP bombs and 946 x 100lb incendiary bombs.
2 bombers dropped leaflets.
1 bomber bombed Podlaska (8 x 500lb GP bombs).
137 B17's returned to Their Russian Base.
7 came down in Russian Territory.
1 B17 was lost to Flak.
Casualties were 1 MIA; 1 KIA, 5 WIA's and 10 MIA's.
Claims were 1 destroyed, 1 probable and 3 damaged.
41 B17's from the 95th and 390th BG's landed at Mirgorod, 73 B17's from the 96th, 100th, 388th and 452nd BG's landed at Poltava.
F/O.Joseph G. Lukacek a B17 co-pilot was killed and Lt. Raymond C. Estle a pilot was wounded and later died of his injuries.

As for the Fighter's.
4th FG with the 352nd FG ( 486th FS only).
70 were despatched
5 returned early
65 reached target Rhuland, 63 landed at Russian Base
1 down in Russian territory
1 was MIA, 4th FG 335th FS 43-6784 "WD-X" 1Lt. Frank T. Sibbett KIA MACR 6800 lost near Bjala, Poland.
Claims were 6 destroyed and 2 damaged.
Of the other Fighters, P38's some 72 were despatched there were 2 MIA.
and P47's 38 were despatched again 2 were MIA
D H Mosquito, 2 were despatched by the 802nd PS, 7th PG .
On the field at Poltava on the 21st were 73 B17's, 3 B24's, 4 P38's, 4 C-47's, and 14 single motor a/c.
Destroyed were 47 B17's, 1 P38, 3 C47's, and 2 single motor a/c.

All the very best
Alex

[Nick Beale]

From Kampfflieger Vol. 4 (Classic Publications):

The Luftwaffe had shadowed them to their destinations and that night a force of He 111s from KG 4 (whose I. Gruppe was to mark the targets), KG 27, KG 53 and KG 55 set off to catch the Boeings on the ground.

It's a while since I wrote that, so I can't now remember if I had more detail to base it on.

[Nokose]

I searched "Poltava" and there was numerous previous threads on this subject. One member listed the Russian fighter unit as the 802 IAP PVO equiped with Yak-9's at the airfield. Also the Russians might have lost up to 15 aircraft in the raid. The Russians didn't go after the German plane that followed and refused to allow the U.S. fighter pilots to take off after it. The book "Red Phoenix" has a VVS General stating that the VVS raided airfields of units that would have made raids against the bases used by the USAAF but if this happen it doen't look like it had much of a result. I believe that the VVS was more focused on the next day's main event for them.

[chinapzw]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Hello,

With regard to the Luftwaffe aircraft that spotted the American Formations heading for Russian Territory. As you say a He 111. Also I have seen this recorded as a Ju88 and an He177.
From what I have read it would seem that the first a/c followed for quite some time, then a second a/c took up the task and indeed followed right up to the Russian Air Base. This was indeed a pure chance interception by the Luftwaffe and indeed paid off very well by the follow up by the attacking bombers that same night.

Although the Americans had used the Russian Bases earlier by the 15th AAF this was the first 8th AAF mission to Russia.But the mission was "Frantic II".

Bomber Groups were the 95th;96th;100th;388th;390th;452nd; Of the 163 B17,s despatched, 20 B17's returned to the UK early,( IIRC never even crossing into Europe).
114 bombed Rhuland (777x 500lb GP bombs and 295x100lb incendiary bombs.
26 bombed Elsterwerda (6 x 500lb GP bombs and 946 x 100lb incendiary bombs.
2 bombers dropped leaflets.
1 bomber bombed Podlaska (8 x 500lb GP bombs).
137 B17's returned to Their Russian Base.
7 came down in Russian Territory.
1 B17 was lost to Flak.
Casualties were 1 MIA; 1 KIA, 5 WIA's and 10 MIA's.
Claims were 1 destroyed, 1 probable and 3 damaged.
41 B17's from the 95th and 390th BG's landed at Mirgorod, 73 B17's from the 96th, 100th, 388th and 452nd BG's landed at Poltava.
F/O.Joseph G. Lukacek a B17 co-pilot was killed and Lt. Raymond C. Estle a pilot was wounded and later died of his injuries.

As for the Fighter's.
4th FG with the 352nd FG ( 486th FS only).
70 were despatched
5 returned early
65 reached target Rhuland, 63 landed at Russian Base
1 down in Russian territory
1 was MIA, 4th FG 335th FS 43-6784 "WD-X" 1Lt. Frank T. Sibbett KIA MACR 6800 lost near Bjala, Poland.
Claims were 6 destroyed and 2 damaged.
Of the other Fighters, P38's some 72 were despatched there were 2 MIA.
and P47's 38 were despatched again 2 were MIA
D H Mosquito, 2 were despatched by the 802nd PS, 7th PG .
On the field at Poltava on the 21st were 73 B17's, 3 B24's, 4 P38's, 4 C-47's, and 14 single motor a/c.
Destroyed were 47 B17's, 1 P38, 3 C47's, and 2 single motor a/c.

All the very best
Alex

Thank you very much! Very detailed description!If you can tell me better, I need more information about the German perspective.
For example：Although no results,About 20 German aircraft Intercept U.S. aircraft fleet,From which KG? Commander? Whether to participate in combat ace?

Formation of German planes bombing Poltava 27KG \ 53KG \ 55KG detailed preparation, Commander? Ace? Medal awards?

[chinapzw]

Alex[/quote]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

From Kampfflieger Vol. 4 (Classic Publications):

The Luftwaffe had shadowed them to their destinations and that night a force of He 111s from KG 4 (whose I. Gruppe was to mark the targets), KG 27, KG 53 and KG 55 set off to catch the Boeings on the ground.

It's a while since I wrote that, so I can't now remember if I had more detail to base it on.

Thank you!
If you can tell me more thanks to:
"He 111s from KG 4": Who's driving? Name? Rank?
A He177 : Who's driving? Name? Rank?

[chinapzw]

Originally Posted by Nokose

I searched "Poltava" and there was numerous previous threads on this subject. One member listed the Russian fighter unit as the 802 IAP PVO equiped with Yak-9's at the airfield. Also the Russians might have lost up to 15 aircraft in the raid. The Russians didn't go after the German plane that followed and refused to allow the U.S. fighter pilots to take off after it. The book "Red Phoenix" has a VVS General stating that the VVS raided airfields of units that would have made raids against the bases used by the USAAF but if this happen it doen't look like it had much of a result. I believe that the VVS was more focused on the next day's main event for them.

Thank you！
the 802 IAP PVO: Commander Name?

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Details from "Missing Planes of the 452nd Bomb Group by Edward Hinrichs.
A German He-177 (Reconnaissance plane) flown by Hans Mueller flew over shortly after the B17s landed.

Also from same book.
Poltave was attacked by -
KG 4: 73 He-111's and 6 Ju-88 (Target marking flare planes).
KG 27: 75 He-111's.
KG53: 111 He-111's
KG 55: 109 He-111's
These units were commanded by Colonel Wilhelm Antrup, CO of KG 55.
At 30 minutes past Midnight the Ju88's illuminated the Air Base. The Bombers started to bomb from altitude of 4000 meters.
The German bombardiers were given orders not to bomb the tents ( where did this info come from and is it true ?).
Colonel Antrup circled the field for the two hour raid.
No Russian Fighter plane rose to intercept the Luftwaffe bombers. US Fighters were refused permission to take off ( as they were not Night Fighters ?).
After the raid or as a final run the bombers made a low level attack dropping antipersonnel bombs.
It was fortunate that the Luftwaffe marker plane(s) could not find Mirgorod. The next day the 8th AF flew their a/c to other airfields in the Kharkov Area. That night (June 22nd) the Luftwaffe were back and bombed Mirgorod. Again it is reported that the US Fighters were refused permission to take off in defence of the field.

B17's Damaged or Destroyed at Poltava on 21st June 44 were -
96th BG
42-102573 - Dest
42-102603 - Dam
42-102625 - Dest
42-102641 - Dest
42-102653 - Dest
42-102670 - Dest
42-102686 - Dest
42-102701 - Dest
42-102950 - Dest
42-107116 - Dest
42-107227 - Dest
43-37550 - Dam
43-37781 - Dest
42-97628 - Dest
42-97698 - Dam
42-97881 - Dest
42-97903 - Dest
44-6081 - Dest
100th BG
42-32018 - Dam
388th BG
42-31577 - Dest
42-31973 - Dest
42-107198 -Dest
42-38187 - Dam
42-97172 - Dam
42-97832 - Dest
42-97937 - Dest
42-107134 - Dest
42-102666 - Dest
42-102870 - Dest
42-102493 - Dest
42-37844 - Dest
42-38189 - Dest
43-37592 - Dest
452nd BG
42-38157 - Dest
42-97247 - Dam
42-97256 - Dest
42-97283 - Dest
42-97306 - Dam
42-97390 - Dest
42-97935 - Dest
42-102499 - Dest
42-102514 - Dest
42-102587 - Dest
42-102622 - Dest
42-102650 - Dest
42-102665 - Dest
42-102691 - Dam
42-102963 - Dest
42-107049 -Dest
42-107093 - Dest
42-107174 - Dam
43-37558 - Dest
44-6001 - Dest
44-6011 - Dest

Alex

[Nokose]

All that I found was a Mayor(Major) Zhukotskiy for the 802 IAP PVO for 1944 but can't say he was in charge at the time of the attack. I didn't see any deaths listed for the 802 IAP PVO that day or for the 310 IAD.

[chinapzw]

Gentlemen, I am very satisfied, Thank you very much selfless answer. To you my best wishes!