Confused about the 325th FG?

[keith A]

I have been a fan of the 325th since I bought Ernie McDowell and Bill Hess' book about a quarter of a century ago. Herky Green and his gang were/are my intro to the USAAF in the MTO.

I have spent the day looking at the claims for this Fighter Group for the period 1943-44 and I cannot find a single claim that is shared, whereas I can find a number of massive combats where german/italian units are massacred, whole squadrons and groups wiped out. Recent help from TWOH contributers indicate they made several raids into the LW/ANR inventory, at least a creditable 25-35% success rate but was it a decision never to share claims....?

If true then the LW fighter units were totally inept (not likely - 96 Bf109 confirmed destroyed in the period May-August 1943!), and lying about their casualties... and that they can't cope with the Warhawk, which seems very, very unlikely...

I am about to look at the LW claims for the combats and will expect overclaiming as well, but....

regards

Keith

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Keith,

A couple of the 325th FG combats in May 1943 are discussed in an article downloadable from our company website, 'USAAF Claims Against Fw 190s': http://airwarpublications.com/articl...lated-material


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[keith A]

Blimey Andrew!

From this information it looks like massive overclaiming in terms of Luftwaffe losses. Not even 1 in 10 success rate!

thanks

Keith

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Keith,

The missing element is information from Italian records. Hopefully someone can help with this.

I did some more digging today, and it is clear that the 325th FG didn't down too many Luftwaffe aircraft over Sardinia. Below is information about the unit's combats over Sardinia from the surrender in Tunisia to the invasion of Sicily:

19 May 1943
- 325th FG claims 6-0-0 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 6-3-2 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost one Ju 88 to fighters, one Ju 88 damaged by fighters, possibly one Me 410 to unknown causes on a mission, one Ju 87 by fighters, two Ju 52s by fighters.
- Total: 5 Luftwaffe combat losses, possibly 6

20 May 1943
- 325th FG clams 13-1-0 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 9-1-2 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost one Ju 88 to fighters, one Ju 52 to fighters, one Bf 109 to fighters, three Me 323s to fighters
- Total: 6 Luftwaffe combat losses

21 May 1943
- 325th FG claims 4-0-2 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 7-4-1 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost one Bf 109 to fighters

27 May 1943
- 325th FG claims 6-0-0 over Sardinia. No other USAAF claims over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost no aircraft in combat over Sardinia

18 June 1943
- 325th FG claims 2-0-1 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 17-3-5 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost one Fi 156 to fighters

24 June 1943
- 325th FG claims 5-0-3 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 16-4-7 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost two Bf 109s in combat

28 June 1943
- 325th FG claims 4-1-4 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 7-3-5 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost no aircraft in combat over Sardinia


Until we know about the Italian side it is difficult to make conclusions. However, what seems clear is that the two understrength Jagdgruppen defending Sardinia, II./J.G. 51 and III./J.G. 77, handled the Americans quite well.

Another thing that should be noted is that although the Luftwaffe wasn't losing too many aircraft in the air, there were lots of reports of aircraft destroyed or damaged by bombing on Sardinia in this period. Aerial combat was not the only way to win air superiority!


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[keith A]

Thanks again Andrew. It definitely looks like the 325th was showing it's inexperience. It would be interesting to find out how many of the 26 Mc202s credited in the same period actually were lost.

Regards

Keith

[CENTURION]

Hello Keith and Andrew,

in late May of 1943 the Italian fighter units in Sardinia were, in the south of the Island:

20° Gruppo Caccia (51° Stormo) at Capoterra airfield – Cagliari with Mc202s and Mc205s
155° Gruppo Caccia (51° Stormo) at Monserrato airfield – Cagliari with Mc202s and Mc205s

In the north of the Island (about 200 Km away):

24° Gruppo Caccia at Venafiorita airfield – Olbia with Mc202s
160° Gruppo Caccia at Venafiorita airfield – Olbia with Re2001s

Therefore, the 325th Fighter Group, that usually raided southern Sardinia, was often engaged by the 51° Stormo.

19 May 1943
- 325th FG claims 6-0-0 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 6-3-2 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost one Ju 88 to fighters, one Ju 88 damaged by fighters, possibly one Me 410 to unknown causes on a mission, one Ju 87 by fighters, two Ju 52s by fighters.
- Total: 5 Luftwaffe combat losses, possibly 6

The Macchi Mc202s/Mc205s of 20° Gruppo claimed 2 P38s for no loss.

Andrew, since the 12 U.S. claims concern fighters, do you know who shot down the Ju88, the Ju87 and the two Ju 52s?

20 May 1943
- 325th FG clams 13-1-0 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 9-1-2 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost one Ju 88 to fighters, one Ju 52 to fighters, one Bf 109 to fighters, three Me 323s to fighters
- Total: 6 Luftwaffe combat losses

28 Mc202s/Mc205s of 51° Stormo claimed 2 P38s and 1 B24 for 2 Macchi lost (Ten. Corrado Corradi KIA - the other pilot bailed out).
(II/JG51 claimed 1 P38 in the same combat but the Americans lost only 2 P40s....)

21 May 1943
- 325th FG claims 4-0-2 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 7-4-1 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost one Bf 109 to fighters

25 Mc202s/Mc205s of 51° Stormo claimed 2 P40s, 1 P38 and 1 B24 for the loss of 1 Macchi (S.Ten. Silvio Gioia shot down at sea - KIA)

Andrew, may I have the data of the Me109 lost on this data?

27 May 1943
- 325th FG claims 6-0-0 over Sardinia. No other USAAF claims over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost no aircraft in combat over Sardinia

22 Mc202s/Mc205s of 51° Stormo claimed 1 P38 (but, far as I know, no P38s in combat) for 2 Macchi lost (Cap. Italo D’Amico and Serg. Dante Testera, both KIA)

18 June 1943
- 325th FG claims 2-0-1 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 17-3-5 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost one Fi 156 to fighters

No data for the 51° Stormo.

The 160° Gruppo lost 2 Re2001s in combat but in the North, near Olbia, probably against P38s of 1st and 82nd Fighter Group.

24 June 1943
- 325th FG claims 5-0-3 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 16-4-7 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost two Bf 109s in combat

On this date S. Tenente Giusto Giusti of51° Stormo died, perhaps in combat.

28 June 1943
- 325th FG claims 4-1-4 over Sardinia. Other USAAF units claim 7-3-5 over Sardinia
- Luftwaffe lost no aircraft in combat over Sardinia

No data for the 51° Stormo.

Hope this helps.
Best regards and thanks.

Marco

Source:
Il 51° Stormo Caccia of Nicola Malizia

[keith A]

Thanks Marco,

It certainly looks like the 325th made some very serious errors in their claims. Oddly enough I was reading recently that General Patton was not pleased with the claims of enemy casualties in the Tunisian campaign and ordered his intelligence officers to add an extra digit to all reports....

After recent disputes about LW claims in Tunisia it looks like the over-claiming was not confined to the Axis.

It does remind me a little of some RAF squadrons versus LW on the Channel Front in 1941.

regards

Keith

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Marco,

Thanks very much for the information from the Italian side.

19 May 1943
Unfortunately I'm not sure. There might have been a mix-up in the German loss records, or there is the chance that British aircraft were responsible for these losses.

21 May 1943
Unteroffizier Wilhelm Flug of 5./J.G. 51 was killed in a crash at Decimomannu after a combat flight in Bf 109 G-6 WNr. 16 603.


Cheers,
Andrew A.

Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

[CENTURION]

Hi Andrew,

thanks very much.

Regards

Marco

[mayfair35]

Keith, It was the policy of the 325th FG not to share claims during the period I flew with the 317th FS. If two pilots claimed the same plane, combat film was compared and if that did not resolve the problem and it appeared both pilots thought they had scored the victory, we flipped a coin. Thus we did not attempt to paint a 5/8 or any other combination of claims/victories on our birds.
There was in instance where a pilot was transferred into the 325th from another fighter group who had been given credit in his original unit for 1/2 of a victory. As I recall his was the only aircraft that showed a partial victory symbol.
That is a long time ago and perhaps it may be different in other squadrons; however, I do not recall seeing other than a complete victory symbol on any of the 325th FG birds. Photography was my past time when not flying missions and none of my pictures show other than the complete symbol either.
Cordially, Art Fiedler