bomb loads of RAF bombers FTR

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello all,

Here a real challenge (at least to me ): does someone know if there is a way to find details about the bomb loads of RAF bombers that didn't return in the UK?

If the Squadron ORB pages reveal details at all about the bombs carried, these are always written down in the ORB after the raid. For the bombers that failed to return, this info remains blank.

I have found Group Orders in which bomb loads were specified before the raid (were these orders always obeyed?) and I also have seen an Appendice in a Group ORB after the raid with such details.

I would ver much like to know if for instance the missing ED347 of 9 Sqdn.RAF (lost 20th December 1942 near Den Hout/Holland) had a 4000 lbs Cookie on board or not.

Who has met the same trouble or knows another source to find out? Any help is much appreciated!

All the best, Marcel Hogenhuis / Venlo

[Kaczmarek]

Hi,

I m sure you find the information which you looking for on the Bomber Command Loss Card for this aircraft. You should try to contact the R.A.F. Museum in Hendon.

Rgds,
Kaczmarek

[Larry]

I would suggest that RAF orders specifying the bomb load for each mission would have always been carried out.

However if some aircraft within a Sqn were required to carry different bomb loads from others then there could be last minute changes if one of them when unservicable before take off.

It may have been possible to get a replacement aircraft to fly the mission but not necessarily in enough time to get the same bomb load as the unservicable aircraft.

[Col Bruggy]

You could try here:

http://www.9sqn.co.uk/members

Col.

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Dear Kaczmarek, Larry and Col.Bruggy,

Many thanks for your very welcome support and replies! I really hope to find more about the bomb loads of the aircraft that didn't return from the Duisburg raid 20th December 1942.

That night, one Cookie was dropped on a relatively low level near Venlo and this bomb cannot be linked to any of the Cookie carrying bombers that returned safely that night, simply because
- either the time of bombing don't match at all
- their bomb was dropped at such a high altitude that it would have fallen more steeply.

So there it is an educated guess that one of the bombers that failed to return - I now think especially about ED347 which was intercepted by a nightfighter on an exceptionally low level - might have lost his Cookie. I just have to proove that this crew flew with a Cookie...

All the best, Marcel

[Observer1940]

Marcel

The Operations Orders issued before the Op are very unlikely to give last minute changes and I agree with Larry on this. You sometimes find a secondary instruction or a Teleprinted Signal amending the details amongst the bomber Station, or Group, or Command paperwork, pre-op. I have found a Signal for a 1940 Op amongst the paperwork amending the previous route on the 1940 Ops Order for that night, so they might exist for loads too?

However, I think you would need to look at post-op paperwork, if it survives.

Forms E
For 1940 I have found some loads dropped in Forms E (only the aircraft MSI number is given which has to be checked to Squadron or Group ORBs / Appendices to find the RAF aircraft serial), but crashed / missing aircraft for some reason do not always seem to be pencilled in, even if the aircraft was lost on return flight.

Sometimes additional or replacement aircraft MSI numbers are given, which cannot be found in ORBs, I discovered on one Op.

Raid Forms
However, in 1940 I did find information informaton in the "Raid Forms" for the night as to whether crashed aircraft had completed their missions.

Some loadings were confirmed, but only for all the aircraft going to the same objective.

General Comments
It might be a lengthy search and again it will depend upon how diligent the Historical Branch compiler was.

I am sure that later in WW2, that some researchers have found information amongst the Intelligence Summaries, but I am not sure how much (if any) will be given in relation to your crashed aircraft, later in the war.

Mark

[Observer1940]

Marcel

Further to my last post (adjacent) and you might be aware of some of the records available already.

I have found this link, but I was hoping to find the other post where the contributors were discussing B.C. Operational Reports in detail.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2033

The more detailed post regarding Bomber Command Reports of Ops and if my memory serves me correctly, Rod (RodM) from NZ and several other contributors were also looking at the various types of operational reports and intelligence available amongst the records at The National Archives, Kew.

One book I found extremely useful about the various record Series and what Classes might be available at the PRO / TNA, Kew and which also contains examples and Catalogue numbers too for those researching a particular Bomber Command Op, or any aspect of the Op, is:-

"PRO Readers' Guide No 8"
"RAF Records in the PRO" by PRO Publications.

Page 77 "Examples of Research" - "A Bombing Operation" and p.79 tracing "The life of an aircraft" (the page 77/78 example deals with the dam-busting Op by 617 Squadron), but many of these types of record Series survive for other Ops.

Out of print, but usually available from s/h book dealers online. I personally felt this was a better book, than what appears to be the replacement.

Squadron Daily Returns (example)
Some Squadron daily returns (Squadron Appendices) known as an "Operations And Statistical Summary" also survive which give Small Arms SAA Expenditure lost, on missing or wrecked aircraft and Bomb Expenditure was also given / lost, with a separate column for expenditure for missing or wrecked aircraft. I presume these Forms were still in use later in the war?

One 51 Squadron Statistical Form I photocopied for 15.8.1940 also noted that one of the aircraft on 51 Squadron "Active operations in air" that 14/15th night had fired 600 rounds, despite no mention in the returning crews Intelligence of any attacking aircraft, or reason for the firing in the Squadron ORBs.

Although the 4 Group ORB indicated a friendly aircraft had opened fire on another friendly, I'm left wondering if maybe the friendly fire incident accounts for the "No. of rounds fired 600".

Note
Although the Raid Form in AIR 14 states the 51 Squadron Whitley aircraft successfully completed their op in 1940 and crashed on return, it is interesting to note in the AIR 27 No.51 Squadron "Operations and Statistical Summary" that the bomb load for the wrecked aircraft was officially classed as "lost".

Which gives me a huge question now, did the Whitley really get to its objective, as claimed in the Raid Form intelligence to the War Room?

On reflection, it might be difficult to prove with 100% certainty what an aircraft had on board when crashing?

As you will know, occasionally aircraft came back with one, or some hung up, which had not released.

Mark