JG26 losses on 5.12.1940

[Franek Grabowski]

It seems my question concerning Galland memoirs turned too hard. Perhaps this will be a simplier one.
That day JG26 suffered following casualties: Heinemann killed, Menge wounded and one aircraft damaged. Don Caldwell states those losses occured around 12.15 pm. Is there any document confirming time of the loss or is it just only a supposition based on time of JG26 claims?
Thanks

[Chris Goss]

According to John Foreman, 64, 74 & 92 Sqns were involved and their claims were 1500-1530 hrs which would have been 1600-1630 CET? The only unit making claims at 1230 hrs was 249 Sqn but apparently they were mixing it with JG 51

[Franek Grabowski]

Ha, had it been so easy, I would never ask!
According to Tony Wood all JG26 claims were between 1215 and 1240 all over the Kent.
Only RAF claims at the time were of 253 and 249 Sqns for a total of 1-0-1.
Then we have RAF claims of 421 Flt - 2-0-1 at 1450, 92 Sqn 2-0-0 at 1500, 74 Sqn 9,5-0-1 at 1530 and 85 Sqn at 1630.
JG51 filled one claim at 1516.
There were losses of 46 and 64 Sqns but I do not have exact times.
One conclusion is that obviously German and British time must have been same (equal?) that day because otherwise it would make no sense at all. Second is that it was doubtless JG26 engaged around noon.
Third is that comabts of that day were a real mess, German aircraft being seen to crash in sea by both 249 and 74 Sqn.
Now, my questions are - what was going on and is there any record of time of German losses - location was generally the same for all RAF claims.

[alcluith]

Franek,

I have P/O C.R Young of 46 Sqn, flying a Hurricane, shot down at 11.25. I have always thought it was by Ob Karl Ebersberger of 4/JG26 who claims a hurricane at 12.20 near Rochester, I had assumed that there was the 1 hour difference. If the times are the same then it could not have been him.

John Foreman does not mention 46 Sqn but I have from another source that Charlie Young was killed when 46 Sqn were returning from pursuit of Messerschmitts out to sea that day and at that time. So it could have been that 46 Sqn were responsible for the casualties.

I have just joined this forum with a specific view of get more information regarding JG26 activities that day to see if I could try to find more information on who 46 Sqn persuade and possible engaged.

I would be interested in Gallards Memoirs regarding this encounter.


Drew Davidson

[Franek Grabowski]

All I can say is that 249 Squadron's combat was more less at the same time as 46's. I could only wish German documents being slightly more complete. At the moment it looks JG 26 was involved against both 249 and 46 Sqns and suffered all losses at the time. Hmm.

Originally Posted by alcluith

Franek,

I have P/O C.R Young of 46 Sqn, flying a Hurricane, shot down at 11.25. I have always thought it was by Ob Karl Ebersberger of 4/JG26 who claims a hurricane at 12.20 near Rochester, I had assumed that there was the 1 hour difference. If the times are the same then it could not have been him.

John Foreman does not mention 46 Sqn but I have from another source that Charlie Young was killed when 46 Sqn were returning from pursuit of Messerschmitts out to sea that day and at that time. So it could have been that 46 Sqn were responsible for the casualties.

I have just joined this forum with a specific view of get more information regarding JG26 activities that day to see if I could try to find more information on who 46 Sqn persuade and possible engaged.

I would be interested in Gallards Memoirs regarding this encounter.


Drew Davidson

hi,german times were one hour in front,.but during bofb all british times were bst, all through 1940.gary

hi, german times were one hour in front, and by the british all times in 1940 were bst, no clocks going forward or back,.gary

[alcluith]

Franek,

In John Forman's The Forgotten Months he claims that 249 & 253 Sqns were in early action.
249 sqn was returning from patrol when jumped by Bf109s Sgt Stroud was shot down by Joppien of I/JG51 and in turn Joppien's bf109s was claimed to be destroyed by Sgt M.K. Maciejowski although it is not recorded. No mention of a previous engagement whilst on patrol.

253 sqn had a fleeting engagement with Messersmitts and F/O JDB Greenwoods claims a "damaged" could this be JG26?

rgds

Drew

[Franek Grabowski]

The problem is that available records indicate JG51 was involved in another combat, see earlier posts in the thread.
That said Miki Maciejowski's and John Grenwood's victims well could have been from JG26.

[alcluith]

Franek,

I have just received the ORB for the 46 Sqn for the 5 Dec 1940 and in fact the 46 Sqn were patrolling with 249 squadron in the lead. It is recorded that they went 10 miles out to sea off Dungeness but nothing on any combat. On their return it is reported that two of 46 sqn saw a hurricane roll over and crash, one of the pilots followed it down and confirmed it crashed near sevenoaks,but no enemy aricraft was seen. It also reports that P/O Young failed to return and it was later reported that he had crashed near Daughton House Kent.
We have recently found and eye witness that saw 4 hurricanes returning and the last one in the line was attached by a Messerschmitt spin out of control and crash.

I do not know if this helps in any way but I thought I would update you on my findings.


regards

Drew Davidson