Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 14th April 2012, 17:53
andy bird andy bird is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: berkshire, england
Posts: 264
andy bird
He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

Three attack a convoy off Kinnards Head at 19.00 hours.

Two of the three Blenheim fighter's on station from 254 Sqn engage one He. 115. At 19.14 it hits the water, the machine stays afloat until 20.10 hours according to RN report and 254 Sqn Combat Report. Destroyer picks up Luftwaffe crew from dinghy names given as Lenz, Schweetke and Neuberg

I have two codes for the machine S4+AH and 8L+DL which one is correct?

13 Grp scramble three Hurricanes from 'B' Flight 145 Sqn; Belgium, Pilot Officer Baudouin de Hemptinne claims a He 115 at 20.15 but accorrding to ORB he had landed back at Dyce by 19.35?

With thanks in advance.

Andy Bird
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 15th April 2012, 09:49
Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,155
Peter Cornwell
Re: He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

Andy,

Just to add to the apparent confusion I have the codes noted as follows:

1./ KüFlGr. 506 Heinkel He115C-1 (3266). Port engine disabled in attack by No.254 Squadron Blenheim (Sgt Tubbs, Sgt Constable, and Sgt Johnstone) during sortie to attack convoy and crashed attempting forced-landing at sea 5 miles south-east of Kinnairds Head 7.20 p.m. Also engaged by P/O B.M.G. de Hemptinne, Sgt J. McConnell, and Sgt J. White of No.145 Squadron. BO Oberlt Gottfried Lenz, FF Uffz Rudi Schwedtke, and BF Obergefr Heinz Neuburg took to dinghy and captured unhurt by RN destroyer. Aircraft S4+BH 100% lost.

I suspect that de HEMPTINNE's claim was timed 19.15 rather than 20.15 hours.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 15th April 2012, 12:51
andy bird andy bird is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: berkshire, england
Posts: 264
andy bird
Re: He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

Hi Peter,

Many thanks, I can add;

Believe Sgt Charles Rose may have helped disable the He 115 (2,000 rounds fired) but broke off after oil obliterated the nose and canopy, Officer Alfred Tyler in L9176 took on the He 115 twenty seconds after Tubbs, coming in from the port beam, putting 450 rounds into the its port engine at 100 yards. Saying; ‘hit the sea a few seconds later,’ time given 19.14.

In the third Blenheim its observer Johnstone first spots the Hurricanes at 19.24 his aircraft R3629 flown by Sgt Albert Tubbs is then attacked individually by the three between 19.26 and 19.30 hours. Diary reads;
‘Attacked again by Hurricane notwithstanding signals with verey light, Aldis lamp and navigation lights being used,’ Johnstone is wounded in the left hand by one 0.303 round (which puts him out of action till the 26 Oct'40) Tubbs managed to get away 19.32 crash landing at Montrose u/c gave way 20.25 hrs.
One hour later Flt/Lt Robert Bungey confronted Pilot Officer Baudouin de Hemptinne claiming he'd shot a Blenheim fighter, he also tackled John McConnell and Peter ‘Stunning Black’ Dunning-White who made up ‘Green Section’ the OC of 254 Sqn also got involved.

The out come seems to be they (Green Section) had to do two hours aircraft recognition, the 145 report was typed up 'P/O de Hemptinne intercepted and is thought shot down one of three Heinkel 115 at 19.20 hours, 5 miles south-east of Kinnards Head.’ Tubbs did not receive an apology and he did not associate with 145 SNCO's afterwards in the Sgt Mess for the rest of 145s time at Dyce and Montrose.

Once again, many thanks

Andy Bird
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 15th April 2012, 13:24
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 397
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

Hallo Andy,

Forgive me if I hijack your thread. I note your reference to a Sgt. Charles Rose, a pilot I presume. I have been trying to find the first names and service number of a P/O H.R. Rose of 254 Squadron who was unhurt after an accident in Blenheim L8786 on 31 August 1940.

I wonder if the initials given - and maybe even his rank - are in error. I cannot find a 'H.R. Rose' in the London Gazette for 1939 and 1940. I do not have access presently to the 254 Squadron ORB, but may have to obtain the Form 1180 if one exists.

Could the two have been the same man ? Any help much appreciated.

Regards,

Martin.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 15th April 2012, 13:28
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,439
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

Peter
May I again ask for confirmation of the code, S4+BH?
Reason I ask is that my present source BoB Then and Now lists it as Andy says, S4+AH...

Andy
Your second code for a He 115 is for a totally different unit and I don't think that Heinkel had anything to do with this attack.

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 15th April 2012, 15:49
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 4,455
Chris Goss is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

Of interest, CC Intsum says 1915 hrs Q/254 Sqn shot down a He 115 North Sea crew rescued by destroyer then 1925 hrs M/254 Sqn had an inconclusive with a He 115 off Kinnairds Head
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 15th April 2012, 21:30
andy bird andy bird is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: berkshire, england
Posts: 264
andy bird
Re: He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

Hi Chris,

Trawled through the AM Daily Report which reads; (M-Monkey)

'Bullets were seen to enter the Heinkel but no effective damage was observed'

No mention of this in the 254 ORB Monthly report.

Guess that if the Hurricanes or Hurricane was engaging the He. 115 with adrenaline pumping it was easy to mistake the Blenheim for a Junkers 88 which happened on a monthly basis.

Hi Martin,

Sgt C. F. Rose 565666 - Joined 233 Sqn 'D' Flight then on 14.2.1940 notified that along with eight other pilots would be transferred to 254 Sqn on 28.1.1940 when 254 was also transferred from Fighter Command to Coastal Command.

Also — Typo - Tubbs should read "ROSE" Apologies AB

'Officer Alfred Tyler in L9176 took on the He 115 twenty seconds after Tubbs,

Kind Regards

Andy
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 16th April 2012, 09:39
Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,155
Peter Cornwell
Re: He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

Stig,

Certainly A.I.1(k) Report No.691/1940 recorded the codes as S4+AH at the time and this source informed my entries in both The Battle of Britain Then & Now (1980) and The Blitz Then & Now Vol.2 (1988). However, it would seem that the Lw QMG Returns record this loss as S4+BH as both Mason's Battle Over Britain (1969) and Jim Perry's lists both show it thus. Unfortunately, my microfilm of the original document is not to hand at present so I cannot check but it was this that obviously prompted me to make the change to S4+BH.

If someone has ready access to the KuFlGr.506 KTB for 2.10.40 (Admiralty Document PG80103 NID = RM118-58) it would be good to finally confirm this one way or the other.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 16th April 2012, 21:13
Seaplanes Seaplanes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 464
Seaplanes
Re: He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

In the KTB for F.d.L. West for 01.10.40 - 15.10.40 it is entered for 02.10.40 that three He 115 (S4+IH, S4+FH and S4+BH) of Kü.Fl.Gr. 506 Stavanger-Sola were on armed recce in the area Peterhead - Montrose. During attacks on coastal shipping S4+BH was hit about 20.05 German time, and did not return to base.
At 07.30 the following morning a further three He 115's of this unit were sent out for search of "B" of 1./506, but without result.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 17th April 2012, 09:51
Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,155
Peter Cornwell
Re: He.115 Losses 2/10/1940

Thank you Seaplanes. S4+BH confirmed.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seeking confirmation of I./KG30 losses from Luftflotte V raid (Driffield) on E Coast England on 15.8.40 and other info on Ju88 losses on that raid. Larry Hickey Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 28th February 2011 12:49
Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills' Sanchez Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 26 21st December 2007 15:17
Soviet air force losses 1941-1945 Six Nifty .50s Allied and Soviet Air Forces 12 15th May 2005 17:57
Tunisian losses Juha Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 29 25th March 2005 13:56
Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 47 14th March 2005 04:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2007, 12oclockhigh.net