Luftwaffe im Focus no.7, page 23, photo 33

[markojeras]

Does anyone can ID the He 162 on the right of the photo?

With best regards,

Marko Jeras

[O.Menu]

Actually two are visible side by side and probably non of them are M20 since they kept their fins and the fin from M20 is visible very close to Fw 190D-9 red 4 on others photos... and none of them are M23 since the camo is different... That's all i can say...

By the way looks to this ebay link before it closed. This one was wone for a little price probably because not advertised here on TOCH. The last photo show the 30mm gun bay as we never saw it before +++

http://cgi.ebay.de/WWII-3-TOP-PHOTO-...QQcmdZViewItem

[Simon Schatz]

Hi Marko!

As you can see on the pic on page 23 there are two He 162. Left isn't M 20, because I'm missing the M20 letters under the cockpit. The plane to the right could be the same as shown here: Maybe these planes are some more from the Heinkel Sued production in Vienna?

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...?showtopic=961

Scroll down to the pic 2: ( Luftwaffe Warbirds Photo Album Nb 6 )

Cheers, Simon

[Simon Schatz]

Hi O.Menu,

I aslo tried to buy these pics but the price was too high for my small pocket.
The other pics from these series were sold for more than 100 Euros. Really interesting to see the unfinished 310020.

Cheers, Simon

[O.Menu]

My previous post was done pretty quickly and from memory only.
After one night and some checks i change my mind:

1/ On the color photos the airplanes are side by side but on the JV44 Dora red4 B&W photo, planes are one over the others and so color photos are older than the later. (from captions May 45 for color photo and 1947 for the B&W).

2/ M20 got similar camo as the one visible on the color view and further more had same kind of black hole on nose right side and open bay rear from the cockpit.

>> So i really think that M-20 could be the one we see, the marking M20 is not visible since it's masked by the wing down on the earth. It's pretty easy to imagine that M20 will be pushed over the D9 red4 some month after this color view. (Note: 1/ Dora red 4 and red 1 are probably very near from each other, one in front a ju 88 and the other beside this probably same ju 88, need more checks to be sure 2/ Dora red4 is the one visible backward from the He 162)
>> The other He 162 is only partly visible, possibly no camo at all...

[Hohentwiel]

In Luftwaffe Im Focus # 8 are some new informations about this photos:
First the "red 4" was probably not a D-9 but a D-11 which was junked in Munich.
A theory is that the He 162 came from Lechfeld, were jet engines were tested.
He 162 were among the types tested there. Maybe the machines were flown
to Munich-Riem like some Ar 234.
A reader wrote in LIF forum that the Americans did not find any He 162 in Lechfeld.

[David E. Brown]

This is an interesting thread. Hopefully I might be able to add some insight into the possible identification of the He 162s found at München-Riem. In my opinion, there are not two but at least three He 162s in the aircraft dump.


Based on the many photos of the München-Riem aircraft dump in my collection and published, the colour photos were taken quite early in the evolution of the site. In the subject colour photo, the view is to the north, and the Fw 190 D-11 to the right (east) of the Ju 88 A-1 is Red 4, WNr.170933. Other published and unpublished black and white photos clearly show that the Fw 190 D-9, Red 1 WNr.600424, is located on the left (west) of the Ju 88. This is the same Ju 88 A-1 in all photos – note the narrow yellow ring around the forward edge of the engine cowlings. However, there is a Si 204 D (rounded nose) AND a Si 204 A (pointed nose) to its right (east). From a distance, the former looks a bit like a Ju 88 and could lead to some confusion.


Regarding the He 162s, the one to the left of the colour photo is indeed the M20 aircraft. Of the two, it is the only one with a camouflaged nose. A close study of the image also shows a small round hole that is visible of the right side of the nose. This is seen in several photos of the aircraft soon after its discovery. The best photos are seen Smith and Creek’s “Jet Planes of the Third Reich” (Monogram, 1982). In this book, there is another photo taken soon a shot, taken in the dump looking east and in the fall of 1945, M20 is in the background and surprisingly, M23 is in the foreground. Furthermore, both still retain their engines – in the colour photo they are missing.


Another observation is that M20’s Werknummer is visible in another photo taken of the dump but at a later date. This is the photo showing the port side of the D-9 Red 4 with its wappen, number and inscription. The best reproduction of this photo is on page 23 in the Eagle Editions’ “Doras of the Galland Circus”. The werknummer on the top of left He 162’s tail is clearly visible – 220003. Hence, it is the M20 aircraft that was dragged out of the DLH hangers and to the dump on the northeast part of the airfield. By the way, the M-20 marking on the nose can’t be seen simply because it is obscured by the Me 410 wing.


The aircraft on the extreme right in the colour photo is not M23. Photos of M23 reveal that the wings and forward fuselage were painted, probably in RLM 02. The aircraft in the colour photo has a camouflaged upper wing whose leading edge is the underside colour 76. This aircraft is the He 162 that is seen in the image posted by Simon dumped over the rear fuselage of the Fw 190 D-11 Red 4, WNr.170933. Clearly, the photos show that that its wing is camouflaged as described above, and that it has an unpainted fuselage with all the puttied panel lines clearly visible. Note to that the panel behind the cockpit is natutal metal whereas M-2os is painted. This aircraft's Werknummer is unknown, but the tail of M20 is seen in the background - the Werknummer is visible in one of them. Furthermore, M23’s code VI+IP should be visible in this photo but is not on this aircraft, only a Balkenkreuz is present.


So, these two aircraft are in the same position relative to each other is the early and later photos – M20/WNr.220003 to the left (west) and the unpainted He 162 to the right (east). But where is M23?


I believe that M23 was simply pushed aside to the left of M20 and simply buried under other aircraft, perhaps under the 4-5 Me 262s that were dumped in front of the Ju 88. It is just not visible. It should come as no surprise that this is possible given that the various photos confirm that over time aircraft were moved around and pushed to the back and/or lifted over each other in order to make room for more aircraft hulks.


Anyway, this is my 2 cents worth on this subject. Thoughts and comments on the above are appreciated.


Cheers,


David

[O.Menu]

Thanks for your clear and detailed confirmation David

Note: did you believed as i do that the He 162 from Luftwaffe photo Album is a forth one ?

[David E. Brown]

Hello Olivier,

I should have mentioned in my posting that I was merely confirming your prior interpretation with additional data - credit where credit is due!

The unpainted aircraft is the third one as you indicated. It looks suspiciously like the one seen in the eBay pictures - 131020 - especially with the unpainted panel behind the cockpit.

The fourth aircraft? I don't see one. can you comment further on this?

Cheers,

david

[Simon Schatz]

Hi David!
Did you get my last email?

I think you mean the He 162 pics that were sold some days ago. W.Nr 310020 from Bernburg production. The plane in Luftwaffe Focus looks more a plane built by Heinkel in Rostock. Compare the pics with the known pics of 120235. These two planes seem to be from the same production series.

Cheers, Simon