About the P51 losses on 16 March 1944 ?

[canonne]

Hi,
We would like to know information concerning all the lost P51 Mustang occured on 16.03.1944.
Thank you
regards
Philippe

[RSwank]

The 8th AF lost 6 P-51s that day, all on bomber escort. Here is a list showing serial number, MACR, Group, Squadron, Last seen location (time all probably B.S.T), Name and circumstance.

1. 43-6451 (GQ-L), MACR 3008, 354th FG, 355th FS, Geislingen, Germany (11:45), Dempsey, Donald Eddy (POW), Engine Quit/Fuel tank problem (could not switch to internal tank). Bailed out.


Note: in the index of KU reports on fold3.com there is recorded a Mustang ("P-51B7 NA") crashing at 11:45 "Geulsingen". Oddly, report number is KU 1205. Normally "KU" reports are for bombers and "KUJ" or "J" for fighters.

Note: in the index of KU reports on fold3.com, there is also the report of a crash of "Yellow 9" at Donzdorf at 12:15, KUJ 750. Donzdorf is in the same area as Geislingen, but there seems to be quite a time difference if this is 43-6451.

2. 43-6527, (YF-J) MACR 3391, 355th FG, 358th FS, West of Ulm (12:30), Carver, Harold I (KIA), shot down by ME 109
3. 43-6842, (YF-S) MACR 3392, 355th FG, 358th FS, South of Ulm (12:30), Wright, Donald H (POW}, dog fight ME 109

Note: in the index of KU reports on fold3.com there is a report (J 749) of a crash of a Mustang at 12:30 at Gussenstadt, which is about 20 MI north of Ulm. there is a notation "2665" which does not seem to be any of the serial numbers lost that day.


4. 43-6956, (G4- ) MACR 3107, 357th FG, 362nd FS, 20 MI S of Stuttgart (11:45 B.S.T) , Meyer, Robert A (KIA), problem with drop tank
Note: the index of KU reports on fold3.com shows this plane as crashing at 11:45, 2 km E of Genkingen, 12 km S of Reutlingen, which is S of Stuttgart and west of Ulm. Report: J 742.

5. 43-6960, (G4-S) MACR 4108, 357th FG, 362nd FS, 20 MI S of Stuttgart (11:45 B.S T), Pyeatt, Alvin F (POW, died in captivity), In dogfight w ME 109s.
Note: the index of KU reports on fold3.com shows this plane as crashing at 11:45 at 200 m S of Bodelschausen , Report KUJ 691.


6. 43-6652, (VF- ) MACR 3380, 4th FG, 336th FS, Kaufbeuren Area (12:00) , Skilton, Ernest R (KIA), In dogfight w ME 109s but apparently hit by flak. Kaufbeuren is about 45 to 59 mi SE of Ulm.


Note: in the index of KU reports for 16 March, there is a report for the crash at 13:00 of a Mustang, near Orschweier, KUJ 721.
No further identification as to plane.

So.... we have, according to the AAF records, 6 Mustangs lost and according to the German records, 6 Mustang crashes, the trick is to match them up.


Note: these crashes are also discussed here with comparisons to Luftwaffe shoot down reports.:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...p?t-32044.html

[canonne]

Hi,
Thank you very much indeed for your message full of very precious information ! splendid !
Regards
Phil.

[drgondog]

Robert Meyer was shot down and captured as POW - not KIA, Pyeat was shot down and died of wounds in the hospital.

[RSwank]

There is no POW record for Meyer, he is also not on the official MIA list.

He is listed with a FOD (finding of Death) on the official casualty lists for Kings County, NY.
http://media.nara.gov/media/images/29/14/29-1327a.gif

He also shows up on this Air Force List (not official).
http://usaafdata.com/?q=node/142720

Pyeatt is listed on the POW records as having died while POW (posting corrected above).
http://www.ww2pow.info/index.php?pag...ctory&rec=2305

Interesting Note on Pyeatt.
http://www.cebudanderson.com/namepast.htm

[drgondog]

Meyer is listed as POW in "To War with the Yoxford Boys", pg 66 and 271, as well as Fighter Units and Pilots of the 8th AF..

Noted as 'surviving the war'

[drgondog]

It is possible that as a POW he died while a prisoner - making it tough to reconcile 'surviving the war'.. also a FOD usually follows a MIA post war.. so a mystery.

[drgondog]

I no longer subscribe to fold3 so the macr is 3107. The 357FG history has him bailing out near Reutlingen and as stated above - POW. The macr will obviously tell the story /J-742

[RSwank]

MACR 3107 on fold3.com is no help on Meyer. There is no notation after his name, only what appear to be initials of a "checking" officer and what appears to be the notation "n/c" (not classified?). There were no added pages to the original MACR, which was done on 17 March 1944, so no pages from J-742 were added. The eyewitness (Arval Roberson) states that he did not see what happened to Meyer since after talking to Meyer about the drop tank problem, he was attacked by ME 109s. No parachute was seen in the area. A curious case. However, I found two newspaper articles.

This first, from 24 February 1946, says that captured German documents show that Robert A Meyer, previously reported MIA was killed on 17 March 1944.

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2...20-%201178.pdf

The 2nd newspaper article reports that Meyer's body was returned from Europe in 1948. His name is in the 2nd column of the article about "82 Boro War Dead..." This would explain why he is not on the MIA list.


http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2...20-%206365.pdf

There was probably a FOD a year and a day after he went missing, i.e. on March 17, 1945. The first newspaper article, citing German documents may have gotten mixed on the 16 vs 17 of March dates. I suppose another possibility is that he was killed resisting capture on 17 March 44. The fact that they use the word "killed" as opposed to "died" makes me think he quite possibly killed in the crash and may have been buried as an unknown. It then took the Army a while to recover and identify the remains, which they would have done using German documents. Without the German documents we can't know for sure exactly what happened.

[drgondog]

Excellent research on the subject!