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  #1  
Old 4th October 2013, 07:04
nuuumannn
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Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Hi Guys, I need some help with source information of a Luftwaffe nature and I know there are individuals with the knowledge here to help me.
Two tail fins from Schnaufer's Bf 110Gs survive, one in Australia, one in London. Different source information give different aircraft for where these came from. A long held belief is that Schnaufer's last Bf 110G was G-4/R8 WNr 180560, coded 3C+BA and was captured at Eggebeck and decorated in British markings post war and the tail fins are from that aircraft. See thread from WW2aircraft.net forum here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/air...c-ba-5807.html

In Phil Butler's War Prizes and Jerry Scutts' German Night Fighter Aces of WW2, both authors assert that contrary to popular belief 3C+BA was not Schnaufer's aircraft. Scutts makes the assertion that his last Bf 110 was G-4 G9+BA, which had its tail fins painted up especially by NJG4 ground crew, but in which Schnaufer never claimed any 'kills'. I have also found an image of 462 Sqn personnel standing next to a left hand tail fin of what is claimed to be G9+BA and that it is this aircraft's fins that survive. Take a look here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R...aufer_1945.jpg

My questions are as follows; what is the primary source information that states that 3C+BA is actually Schnaufer's aircraft? Also, if 3C+BA is not Schnaufer's aircraft as Butler and Scutts asserts, then where did they get their information from? Authors who make assertions that a widely held point of view is incorrect must do it for a good reason, so, what is these guys' reason? Does anyone have access to Schnaufer's Flugbuch that can confirm any of this?

I have been in contact with AWM in Canberra who advise me that their fin is from the same aircraft as the IWM one, based on the style of the 'kill' markings, which were hand painted, but they did not confirm which aircraft it was from; interesting since the above image is an AWM one.

Can anyone assist as to which aircraft the surviving fins are from?
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  #2  
Old 5th October 2013, 10:33
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SES SES is offline
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Re: Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Hi,
I should have reacted when you posted on LEMB, but never mind.
G9 was the code of NJG1 and early on of NJG4, but at the end of the war 3C was the code of NJG4, can you imagine that the Kdore of NJG4 would fly a bird with NJG1 codes?
bregds
SES
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Old 5th October 2013, 12:06
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Re: Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Also I think that the location and code of the Wiki picture is misidentified. If a Bf110G-4 with FuG218 indeed had been found on Schleswig there is a great chance that it would have been selected for transfer to the UK. According to the AM list it was not. Conversely a similar type was found at Eggebeck and that became AM15.
bregds
SES
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Old 5th October 2013, 15:22
Wim Wim is offline
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Re: Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by SES View Post
Hi,
can you imagine that the Kdore of NJG4 would fly a bird with NJG1 codes?
Yes ! which is in fact what he did.
Since July 1944 until February 1945 he flew all his operations in G9+EF until the aircraft was lost - flown by another crew - on 30th March. One of the rudders of that particular aircraft is in private hands.

As for 3C+BA - Schnaufer did fly with this aircraft. Since his operational aircraft was lost, this 3C rudders were painted as before and the Me 110 was posted in front of the control tower at Eggebeck. The Wiki photo description is correct ! I have corresponded with Langworthy, I know wen the photo was taken, and wen and why Langworthy was there. (Source, correspondence plus his logbook)
There is no doubt that both these rudders ended up in Londen and Australia.

And yes, the Me 110 3C+BA was indeed flown to England (without the rudders in question) on the 23 June with the FuG 218 via Knokke in Belgium - this is were the other photo was taken (see other forum).

Anyway, I will not go into details, I have been discussing this matter already a few times - I have studied ALL rudders, have been to see them personally in Londen - Australia - private - have found (as I recall correctly) 47 mistakes between the rudders in dates, type aircraft...and so on. I even have corresponded with all other authors which dealt with this matter - mistakes were found.

Attached are the two last pages of Schnaufer's second logbook. Perhaps this can clear up a few things !

Wim
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Schnaufers logbook.jpg (203.8 KB, 90 views)
File Type: jpg Schnaufers logbook-1.jpg (201.4 KB, 75 views)
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Old 5th October 2013, 16:02
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Re: Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Hi,
I'm utterly confused. But just two observations. G9 was also the Geschw. code of NJG4 for a while. In the log book I can see the individual a/c letter and stab code as BA, which to me proves that he flew 3C+BA as late as 15. April 1945. Are you suggesting, that he had a later mount with old Geschw. codes and the ground crew three weeks before the war ended had the time and inclination to repaint the rudders.
bregds
SES
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  #6  
Old 5th October 2013, 19:55
Wim Wim is offline
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Re: Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Wen Schnaufer took over NJG 4 he kept on flying with his old and trustworthy G9+EF - the code on that aircraft was never changed. His last recorded flight with that Me 110 was on 23 March.
Schnaufer took 3C+BA on the 24 March and although not recorded in his logbook, he did transfer with that aircraft to Wunstorf. Why he did not take G9+EF is not known - what is known was that Schnaufer was convinced that the transfer was only for a short period and that he would return to Gütersloh. However this did not take place. He ordered another crew to fly his G9+EF to Gütersloh, they were however shot down by American Fighters. So G9+EF never reached Gütersloh, and Schnaufer kept on flying with the 3C+BA. He did the flights as you can see in the logbook, but this Me had another radar configuration and Schnaufer wanted another aircraft.
So Schnaufer phoned his good friend Jabs and he provided Me 110 G9+DX.
The original 3C+BA was shot up while on the ground in Eggebek. So Schnaufer flew his last flights in G9+DX and yes - wen the British troops entered the airfield in Eggebek (Schleswig) on May 10, 1945 - the Me was changed (painted) into 3C+BA and with all the victory-markings painted on the rudders. Schnaufer wanted to make a statement ! The transfer flight to Engeland was coded AM 15.

Regards, Wim
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Old 5th October 2013, 23:12
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Marcel Hogenhuis Marcel Hogenhuis is offline
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Re: Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Hello,

As Wim is definitely THE Schnaufer expert around these days, I will only make comments about the suggestion that the NJG 4 used G9 in the early days of this Geschwaders existence.

Having a large Bf110 database I am convinced that much of the confusion is caused because parts of the NJG 1 were used as nucleus for other Geschwader. In October 1942 the II./NJG 5 was formed with the experienced 3./NJG 1 as nucleus etc. In all cases you will find Bf110's at these Gruppen with G9 markings weeks after the official births of these Gruppen.
Another - perhaps overseen - circumstance which could explain the continuative use of the old marking is... a superstitious believe that it would keep trouble away. Whether this was the case with Schnaufer I must pass this question to Wim.

All the best, Marcel
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Old 6th October 2013, 11:28
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Re: Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Hi Wim,
Thanks for the thorough explanation. So now we have G9+DX repainted as 3C+BA at Eggebeck and G9+BA at Schleswig (it is two different airfields) also with repainted rudders. And BTW it is Bf 110 not Me 110 .
And if your explanation is correct, then the Wiki picture should read: at an airfield in Schleswig-Holstein with the code 3C+BA. And this was my entire purpose of getting involved in this discussion.
bregds
SES
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Old 6th October 2013, 13:53
Wim Wim is offline
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Re: Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Quote:
Originally Posted by SES View Post
And BTW it is Bf 110 not Me 110 .
OK, I stand corrected ! but there is only one 3C+BA, the formally G9+DX, which was left behind by Schnaufer at Eggebeck. On the 14the June this Bf110 3C+BA was flown by a British pilot to Schleswig. And on the 19th June Max Langworthy had his photo taken along the Bf110 as can be seen on the Wiki-picture on that same airfield.
Cheers, Wim
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Old 6th October 2013, 15:08
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Re: Schnaufer's last Bf 110

Hi Wim,
Thanks a lot, albeit it was a somewhat circular route.
Pitty that the G9+BA legend has found it's way into profiles and decal sheets.
bregds
SES
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