Calling for help from Matti, Andreas B, Jim P and others

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys

There is a problem here
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...d=1#post175960
which I hope someone of you can help to clear up.
Which bomber Ju 88s were lost this date, if any, and is there anything about a rescued Luftwaffe crew that day?

Cheers
Stig

[edNorth]

No shoot down losses listed of that date. Two Ju 88 C damaged (as stated in thread). The Ju 88 shot down one maybe the one listed one day earlier? This is the only one listed that day in area, on (23.11) one and day after (24.11) there is none.

4338 Ju 88 A-5 4.(K)/LG 1 (Ob.befh.Sud) OPS (F) downed by <enemy> fighter (100%) 180 km east of Agedabia 22.11.1941 (F Uffz. Berthold Bernschein, BS Uffz. Kurt Wieser, BO Uffz. Bernhard Mähler and BF Uffz. Alfred Richter injured)

4363 Ju 88 A-5/tr III(K)/LG 1 (Fliegerkorps X) OPS (F) destroyed in <enemy> bombing <attack> (100%) at Benina Airfield 23.11.1941 (F Uffz. August Neumann killed)

[AndreasB]

Hmmm... The one the day earlier resulted in 3 (I think) out of 4 crew becoming POW. This is well documented, there's a picture on the 113 Squadron website of one of the prisoners, and the war diary of 29 Indian Brigade mentions 113 Squadron handing over the POW on 23 November. Don Edy also confirms this.

I presume your 4338 crew was rescued, so again, that doesn't match.

Does anyone have the records of 2./(H)14 to see if they lost the Bf 110 on 23 November?

All the best

Andreas

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello,

Must check the original page but my Bf110 database has a Bf110 loss of the 2/(H)14 on 25 November 1941 but as the 5 and 3 are sometimes difficult to distinguish, I might have misread it. To be continued...

All the best, Marcel

[AndreasB]

Okay... Part of the solution.

The two missing Ju 88 (with one crew rescued) refers not to 23 November but to 22 November. It was the morning report of 11.45 hours on 23 November, referring to events the day before with a delayed report (Nachmeldung), from Fliegerfuehrer to Panzergruppe, that was intercepted.

Unfortunately for 23 November there is only an incomplete Nachmeldung in the files for 24 November, missing e.g. the Bf 110 that was lost, and the NJG2 attack.

So still a puzzle with lots of missing pieces. I will correct the blog entry tomorrow.

So at the moment I would now agree that no Ju 88 was lost on 23 November, but we have two missing planes on 22 November, with one apparently definitely shot down, but no confirmation?

All the best

Andreas

[edNorth]

Well, possibly might be this one, despite dated two days earlier. Maybe the lone parachutist was eventually found - dead (mentioned in report 23.11, for 22.11).
This is the closest matching these days, others were crash landed Benaina (1) or damaged by enemy (6) there on 20.11.

5581 Ju 88 A-4 L1+JH I(K)/LG 1 (Fliegerkorps X) OPS (F) mis (100%) unk location [23öst2113] 20.11.1941 (F Lt. Rolf Dräger mis, BO Gefr. Wilhelm Schwantner mis/rep killed in l/31.10.42, BF Gefr. Erhard Edelmann and BS Gefr. Berhard Riemeyer mis)

[Stig Jarlevik]

Ed

Thanks for checking your Ju 88 files for us.
Looking at page 332 of MAW there is a misplaced section relating to 23/11 and not the 22nd, and should be moved to the correct page 337.

From the message intercepts on the 23rd there is a mysterious Fw Wolf listed in connection with Lt Dieter Voigt. Since he was not (at least not mentioned in any of the loss lists) a member of Lt Voigt's crew, who was he??

I don't deny the value of sifting the ULTRA intercepts for information, but I also think one should use them with caution, since they are just that, intercepts and should be used as a compliment.

Cheers
Stig

[AndreasB]

I agree on the care one has to use with ULTRA, but nevertheless, there are discrepancies between ULTRA, Fliegerfuehrer daily reports, personal recollections, etc. which all flow into this.

Regarding 5581 - I am not convinced. I am not sure that on 20 November they had already found L.G.125 - I will check that.

Voigt and Wolf were with NJG2, none of those planes was shot down.

All the best

Andreas

All the best

Andreas

[Matti Salonen]

Luftwaffe loss statistics at this stage of the war are very complete and from my mind more reliable than combat reports at the enemy side. Therefore it is difficult to believe, that one Ju 88 is MIA and not shown in GQM or WASt documents.
Are the POWs really from a Ju 88 or Bf 110? There was the following incident with two POWs:
1941-11-23, 2.(H)/14, Bir el Gabr, Feindlicher Überfall auf Flugplatz.
Beobachter Olt Buddé, Hans-Dietrich, gefangen
B.P. Gefr Belger, Reinhold, gefangen
Could these be the ones mentioned by the 113 Squadron?

Also the loss of Bf 110 should be clear:
1941-11-23, Stab St.G 3, Bf 110 E-2 Trop, 4530, 160 km südsüdöstlich Derna, Notlandung infolge Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Olt Kraus, Edmund, verletzt
Bordfunker Fw Barfels, Helmut

Matti

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Andreas for your further input.

However Matti surely produces the surprise of the day and surely a wild card
by adding a shot down Bf 110E to this day's complexities. This is a loss not mentioned in MAW at all and again shows that WASt can produce surprises via Matti's well researched hands.

Looks like we have an additional Bf 110 down instead.

When it comes to the POW issue, it could well be the crew from 2.(H)/14 which was reported, but we also have to remember that the Desert war was totally different from anything else fought in WW 2, and aircrews could be lost for days without being found (or taken POW).

Matti, may I ask if you have the WNr for the Bf 110 lost by 2.(H)/14? It is not mentioned in MAW.

Again Matti, thanks for your input, very much appreciated!
Cheers
Stig