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  #1  
Old 22nd August 2014, 13:39
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

I would be interested to compare José Maria Bravo´s claims with Nationalist/Italian/Legion Condor loss records. Here his claims - some of them I have checked already:

25.9.1937 - Fiat CR 32
26.9.1937 - half-share of Fiat CR 32
12.10.1937 - Fiat CR 32
22.10.1937 - floatplane, unidentified type
22.1.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

7.2.1938 - half-share of Bf 109 (Bf 109 piloted by W. Balthasar was shot down on 7.2.1938 over Teruel, but according to Patrick Laureau it fell victim to the return-fire of SB-2 bomber, maybe Bravo was also involved?)

21.4.1938 - He 111
25.4.1938 - half-share of He 111 (seems to match with the Legion Condor He 111 loss on that day near Valencia)

25.4.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)
25.4.1938 - Savoia Marchetti SM. 79
10.6.1938 - half-share of Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)
18.7.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)
19.7.1938 - half-share of Fiat CR 32
24.8.1938 - Fiat CR 32
3.11.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)
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Old 8th December 2014, 20:46
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

Here an update of the so far confirmation of air victories of J.M. Bravo:

25.9.1937 - Fiat CR 32 (AFAIK, not such enemy loss, at least not by Aviazione Legionaria)

26.9.1937 - half-share of Fiat CR 32 (AFAIK, not such enemy loss, at least not by Aviazione Legionaria)

12.10.1937 - Fiat CR 32 (this may well match with one of the five Fiat CR 32 losses of Aviazione Legionaria on that day)

22.10.1937 - floatplane, unidentified type (AFAIK, not such enemy loss)

22.1.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

7.2.1938 - half-share of Bf 109 (Bf 109 piloted by W. Balthasar was shot down on 7.2.1938 over Teruel, but according to Patrick Laureau it fell victim to the return-fire of SB-2 bombers, maybe Bravo was also involved?)

21.4.1938 - He 111 (perhaps, but needs more digging)

25.4.1938 - half-share of He 111 (might match with the Legion Condor He 111 loss on that day near Valencia)

25.4.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

25.4.1938 - Savoia Marchetti SM. 79 (AFAIK, no such loss)

10.6.1938 - half-share of Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

18.7.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

19.7.1938 - half-share of Fiat CR 32 (perhaps)

24.8.1938 - Fiat CR 32 (might be a Fiat CR 32 of Aviazione Legionaria lost on 23.8.1938?)

3.11.1938 - Bf 109 (no match with Legion Condor loss records)

This has been a frustfrating process. José Maria Bravo has been one of the most known Spanish Republican aces and he was a impressive personality. I personally would have hoped to find confirmation to all or most of his air victory claims. So far the only really "confirmed" case seem to be one Fiat CR 32 shot down on 12.10.1937 and perhaps the half-share of He 111 on 25.4.1938. If someone is more informed on Bravo´s air victories and their confirmation, please share the info.

Notes based on:
Alcofar Nassaes: La aviación legionaria en la guerra española
Patrick Laureau: Condor - The Luftwaffe in Spain 1936-39
Rafael A Permuy Lopez: Spanish Republican Aces
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/scw.htm


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Old 6th January 2015, 03:39
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

hi,
i found some info for you, 2 CR.32 losses in 24.8.38:

cr-32 3-97 Chapaprieta , muerto en accion (KIA)
cr-32, 3-135 Lacour, prisionero. (POW)

the other claim was by Tarazona

place: Mora del Ebro

hope it helps...
regards
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
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"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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Old 6th January 2015, 22:56
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

Thanks, where did you find the info?
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Old 6th January 2015, 23:22
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

hi,

in this blog:

http://mrvalv.blogspot.com.es/

i contact with the person if he close the blog or continue....
he have many pdfs of the planes you can download from A-N,
with many info of different sources...

if you can´t see the pdfs send me your mail and i send it to you...
hope it helps
regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #6  
Old 8th January 2015, 16:26
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fran fran is offline
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Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

The shot down Fiat 3-97 (c/n.787) was piloted by Fernando Arrechea Belzunce who survived.
The plane piloted by Eduardo Chapaprieta Inglada was 3-135 (c/n.982) and also survided (became engineer after the war)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichalski View Post
hi,
i found some info for you, 2 CR.32 losses in 24.8.38:

cr-32 3-97 Chapaprieta , muerto en accion (KIA)
cr-32, 3-135 Lacour, prisionero. (POW)

the other claim was by Tarazona

place: Mora del Ebro

hope it helps...
regards
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  #7  
Old 9th January 2015, 00:32
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

hi,

many thanks for your extra-info

regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #8  
Old 22nd January 2015, 11:42
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: Air victories of José Maria Bravo (Spanish Civil War)

Alfredo Loguloso´s Fiat CR 32 Aces of the Spanish Civil War (2010) mentions that J. M. Bravo (most probably) shot down the Fiat CR 32 of Nationalist ace Julio Salvador on 3.10.1938 near Fayón (Salvador taken POW, survived). However this is not mentioned in Bravo´s "official claims" - could be that it has been forgotten? - quite strange because Salvador was famous ace. Many sources of the airwar of Spanish Civil War are contradictory and we are more or less left guessing what actually may have happened...
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