Ju 88 A-5 WNr 2400 of II./KG 30

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Hello, according to http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/Losses/tap411.html, II./KG 30 lost two Ju 88 A-5 on 7 June 1941.

One of them (WNr 2332) was actually shot down by a 43 Sqn pilot 10 minutes fater midnight on the 8th.

But I can't find any of these losses in the books "The turning point part 2" or "The Blitz T&N".

I am searching confirmation of the loss of the second bomber of II./KG 30 this day, or rather probably this night. The above source says it was shot down by AA fire in Loch Ewe. Can someone confirm this ?

Thanks in advance

[Jim P.]

Ju 88A-5, 2332, Hick, Ltn. Arno, , , 4., KG 30, , 4D+CM, , , 07-Jun-41, MIA during minelaying sortie due to Luftkampf with Hurricane from 43 Sq. (S/L Dalton-Morgan). Bf & Bs also MIA, Bo KIA., , Lfl.5/Nordsee, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, II, p.291, Medcalf, vor St. Abb's Head (PlQu. 60 20), 100%, F, Bo Fw. Ernst Platscheck, Bf Uffz. Willi Sdrenka & Bs Gefr. Georg Fleischer, , Arado Flzg.Werke Brandenburg in Mar-41

Ju 88A-5, 2400, Wolf, Oblt. Arno, , II., , KG 30, , 4D+BC, SH+IV, , 07-Jun-41, MIA due to Flak from HMS Cottesmore during minelaying sortie. Bf & Bs also MIA, Bo KIA., , Lfl.5/Nordsee, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5; Foreman, 1941-The Turning Point, II, p.291, Medcalf, (Loch Ewe) Nordschottld., 100%, F, Bo Fw. Theo Holstein, Bf Fw. Günther Erler & Bs Uffz. Heinz Weber, , Arado Flzg.Werke Brandenburg in May-41

[Rainer]

It is highly unlikely that HMS COTTESMORE had anything to do with the loss of this Ju88 as the destroyer was in the English Channel on that day.

HMS COTTESMORE was escorting the convoy CW-37 (coastal convoy with 20 merchants from Southend to Yarmouth, Isle of Wight), which was repeatedly attacked by dive bombers between 0005 and 0340 hrs off Dover on 7 June 1941. The destroyer claimed one aircraft shot down at 0110 and another was claimed by HS ML-113 at 0215 hrs. The balloon barrage vessel HMS ROEBUCK was slightly damaged by a near miss, no damage to the merchant ships.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Thanks to your replies,

Well the case darkens...

I summarize:
_ in the Blitz T&N, "two Junkers Ju 88s of II./KG 30 and one from 5./KG 1 were lost on June 7" (not in England, so outside the scope of the book for details)
_ in the Osprey book about 43 Sqn, a claim by Dalton-Morgan for one of the losses of KG 30 was "on June 8th". I assume that it was the night of 7-8, and it was confirmed by the Fighter Command activity file by Tony Wood, that showed the claim as 0010 hrs on the 8th.
_ but the book "The turning point", in which I did not find the KG 30 losses, had them on the night of 8-9 June, which I did not check. Thanks Jim for pointing them.
_ by rechecking Tony Wood's file, the claim by Dalton is shown on the 8th at 0010 hrs but during the night of 8-9 June, so something is wrong here.
_ Jim shows both losses on 7 June, and I guess this date is coming from the Luftwaffe loss list (Gen.Qu.6.Abt)

So in the end, I guess at least one of the losses, the one shot down by Dalton-Morgan, was effectively 10 minutes after midnight on the 8th, and so started on the 7th and was logged on this date by the Luftwaffe.

For the other loss, Foreman says the Cottesmore downed it over the Loch Ewe on the night of 8-9 June. As Rainer says, the Cottesmore was escorting a convoy in the Channel on the night of 6-7 June.

By checking the Admiralty diaries, on 7 June, the boom carrier Ethiopian was damaged by two near misses at Aultbea, in the Loch Ewe, at 0957 hrs.

On 8 June, according to the Admiralty War Diary, "a second attack was made between 0100 and 0200 this morning upon Loch Ewe by 3 to 5 A/C apparently acting in conjunction with a raid in the Minches. One A/C was hit and another is claimed as shot down. No mines are reported to have been dropped, and no damage was done by the bombs.
"AM 8th One aeroplane was definitely hit but not seen to crash and inflated dinghy has been recovered out at sea belonging to a Dornier 18. GIv 854. Search is being made for crew over a large area."
"Air attacks were made on Loch Ewe on mornings of 7th and 8th between 0100 and 0200 first attack was spasmodic and probably by passing aircraft. Second attack was planed and resolutely carried out. Slight damage by near miss on Ethiopian during 1st attack. No damage second attack one slight casualty from bomb splinter on Merchant Seaman. One plane claimed brought down and another definitely damaged. Confirmation of plane brought down not definite. Plane seen going out to sea in difficulties. Rubber dinghy fully inflated has been recovered. Search is being made."

So it seems that the second KG 30 loss was during the attack on Loch Ewe during the early hours of the 8th. I wonder what anabled the British to identify the recovered dinghy as coming from a Do 18, but it should have carried German markings at least.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

A further British report on the 9th gave more details:
"At 0130/8. Ju.88 or Heinkel observed in difficulties and on fire flying down Loch. Very loud double explosion took place and thereafter no engine heard. Rubber dinghy intact but upside down found in vicinity. Planes in pairs, one flying to draw fire, other gliding throttled down and dropping bombs.
(N.O.I.C Aultbea 1237B/9)"

[RT]

KG1 nothing has been heard till today , crew still missing , so prob. loss unknwon from the Brits , also is missing , a shame , the Wn ..

2332 Few is known also probably just report of the Pilot who shot-down them, place, modified , hs been given as PQ 1040 16 w

2400 crash given at 00h30 by salu docs, so convert to brit. time 02h30, that night 15 planes were given , mission trade-vessel nd Wick FP.

Happy to hear of the Ballon-barrage vessel

Rémi

[Stig Jarlevik]

Both interesting and odd...

Strange how the dates can be so wide off the mark.
Checking Foreman and his RAF Fighter Command claims vol 2, there was only one claim during the night of 6/7 June, a KG 1 aircraft which failed to return and which was claimed by 604 Sq.
Also there was just one claim during the night of 8/9 June when 43 Sq claimed a Ju 88 at 00.10H, which means the pilot took off on the 8th and landed on the 9th.

So if Luftwaffe records state KG 30 losses occured on the 6/7 or 7/8 we do have a problem. Either the losses in the Luftwaffe are wrong or the RAF records are, but which one?

Rainer
You connect Yarmouth with Isle of Wight. That cannot be correct since Yarmouth is on the English east coast, pretty near Norwich. I have no records of HMS Cottesmore, but if she was in Yarmouth on the 7th she could at least theoretically been able to be somewhere further north on the night of the 8/9 and be in position to shoot down one of the 88s. Do you know where she was?

Jim/Laurent
At this stage I myself will keep the records intact of the RAF and tend to believe that for some reason Luftwaffe has got its paperwork all wrong....

Cheers
Stig
PS: I have to back down on Yarmouth since it is also a small place on Isle of Wight. So if HMS Cottesmore was there on the 7th, which vessel could have claimed the 88 on the east coast of Scotland?

[Jim P.]

Paperwork wrong? The primary loss data is from the LW records. The added detail like "Hurricane from 43 Sq." is from secondary sources.

[Brian Bines]

Ltn. Arno Hick also mentioned in the book The Diving Eagle as following being wounded flew his aircraft back to Gilze Rijen and crashlanded on 13-3-41. Reported in GQM report dated 14-3-41 page 2.

[Rainer]

@Stig
Yarmouth in Norfolk is officially named Great Yarmouth and should be referenced by this name. Unfortunately such mix ups of geographical names happen quite often, that's why I added Isle of Wight.

It seems someone connected the loss of WNr 2400 to the claim of HMS COTTESMORE only because these events were reported on the same day (7 June 1941). However, the destroyer made this claim during the night of 6/7 June in the Strait of Dover, while the aircraft was most likely shot down by AA over Loch Ewe during the night of 7/8 June.