US neutral Gray

[tonyeh]

Hi. This is my first post on the "new look" forum.

I have a question.

How "blue" was US neutral gray? What I mean is that I have seen many colour photos of US aircraft in the standard olive drab/neutral gray colours, but the tone of neutral gray appears to be, sometimes, a bright lightish gray to a dark almost RAF azure blue colour.

Last night I saw a documentary on the B-17 and the neutral gray on an 8th AF plane seemed a very dark blue colour. The quality of the film was very good and clear and showed that the aircraft had some operational age to it too, as the OD had that typical faded look to it.

Now, I know that there are parameters involved, such as photo quality, fading and mixing qualities (although as I understand it, US paint mixing was quite a strict process). But the contrast in variations is sometimes VERY stark.

Can anyone help?

Tony

[Pilot]

Can not get much from the photos and they could make illusion. This is in regards to the FS 595b 36173 color and it is grey colo, maybe have a dash of blue. But it look like that modern FS doesn not fully match old ANA standard, something may be changes in color mix. By the way- why don't you simply buy model color instead to mix it?

[Graham Boak]

Other sources say that US inspectors at the aircraft factories were not strict on the colour matches, certainly on Olive Drab as can be seen in many photographs.

Neutral Gray was intended to be neutral in hue, the term does not refer to the USA's early neutral posture in the war. It was quite a dark gray. Most of the later-war photos seem to show the fighters, at least, in a significantly lighter grey. For the 8th AF, this was often the RAF's Medium Sea Grey, although this is far from explaining all cases. MSG has a definite bluish tint.

Some very early aircraft were painted using stocks intended to match RAF Sky Blue, and this may be the very blue colour you are seeing. Early B-24s in the Middle East were known as "bluebellies" because of this.

[tonyeh]

Thanks for the replies lads.

Pilot......I am more interested in understanding if there was actually a real discrepency, rather than a modeling project. So its more an info hunt rather than a modeling question. Although, I am building a P-38 at the moment.

Graham.....Cheers on the info on late war Med sea grey undersides of 8th AF aircraft. I have to admit I didn't know they did that. I wonder if the practice was widespread. Although I would be very careful in judging OD from photo's. OD had a tendency to fade very quickly in even temperate climates.

If you're correct about the USAAF being more relaxed to their mixing standards, then that does throw up a problem and would explain the differences in hue, that I've noticed.

Although I don't think I am mistaking an RAF sky blue for a neutral gray. I've noticed it in too many aircraft (sometimes from the same unit) from too many periods in the war and on various aircraft too from P-47's to B-17's.

Tony

[Graham Boak]

Medium Sea Grey was used by those units in the 8th AF that painted over the D-Day stripes with RAF Dark Green. Several units were expected to move to continental bases and these were required to re-adopt camouflage. The 357th is perhaps the most notable, or at least the best recorded.

However, I do believe that there was a lighter shade of grey available in USAF stocks, so a distinctly lighter grey does not necessarily imply MSG.

I'm well aware of the problems in judging fresh/faded OD, but you only have to look at new C-47s to see different shades of OD on the same aircraft. Wings, fuselages and control surfaces, manufactured and pre-painted in different sites, can be in three different shades. This can even be seen in b+w photos. Similar effects can be seen on B-17 tails. This would not occur if a strong authority thought that the precise paint shade mattered.

[Pilot]

It may be that the neutral Grey was mixture of black and white color. later, from 1943, in service enter one more color Light Grey. This color is more comon on the P-38 lightning.

[kurlannaiskos]

bulletin 41 color Neutral Grey # 43 was 6 parts flat black and 4 parts flat white.
there is no blue in it.

the ANA color ANA 603 is called Neutral/Sea grey and is intended to replace neutral grey 43 and also used as an equivelant color for RAF Ocean grey which does have blue in it.
this was for US-made planes to be sent to British Commonweath countries.

this lighter grey is undoubtably ANA 602 Light grey.

B-17's and P-38's used Olive Drab # 319, a lighter and browner color than
(dark) olive drab # 41 or ANA 613 Olive drab. it is very likely that the P-38 used ANA 602 after NG # 43 was discontinued.

[Graham Boak]

Whilst ANA602 Light Grey would seem to be the obvious candidate, the ANA colours did not appear until just before the USAAF abandoned camouflage. There has been considerable discussion on the non-use of the ANA 613 OD instead of OD 41: it seems unlikely that they would use the grey but not the green.

I don't recall your reference #319 for OD - where did you come across this? For the photos, P-38s seem to be among the greener variants, and the brown shades of OD darker than the greens. Apart from the very sandy colour seen on C-47s. However, there was considerable variation.

[tonyeh]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

However, I do believe that there was a lighter shade of grey available in USAF stocks, so a distinctly lighter grey does not necessarily imply MSG.

True. There was a light gray, ANA 602, in the USAAF paint stock. It is possible that in some circumstances that this lighter gray may have been substituted for the darker neutral gray, especially in the field. I'd be surprised though, if it was as widespread as my perceived discrepancy would suggest

Tony

[kurlannaiskos]

please pardon my late responce,I had to go digging for my color information.

my post earlier was from memory and contains an error :
Neutral Grey 43 is 4 parts black and 6 parts white.

according to an article written by Robert D. Archer for Great Scale Modeling (yearly issue from Fine Scale Modeler) based on his book
the official Monogram US Army air service & air corps color guide vol. 1
1908-1941 states :
"in February 1943 the US ARmy requested the USAAF Dark Olive Drab #41 be replaced by thelighter Olive Drab no. 319. the newer color is shownin the color card of the US Army Spec. 3-1 of April 1943"
(I do not have a color sample of this )
"when the new color standards were released, olive drab (ANA 613) was a compromise;it was a little darker than the US Army's 319, but lighter and browner than the USAAF's no.41
the document for the new ANA 157 paint standard was AN-E-7 dated Nov. 4 1943, but it was not recieved by manufacturers until December 1943"

Quarter Scale Modeler Volume 3 issue 3 page 19-21 has an article by Paul Lucas "Causing more Havoc : shades of Olive Drab"
"there is some evidence to suggest that the Spec 3-1 319 hue was applied to some aircraft, particularly C-47's, P-38's and B-17's
C-47's are especially interesting, as some aircraft appear to be finished in a combination of Dark olive Drab 41 and Spec 3-1 319 , both with and without,Medium Green 42 blotches;and with light grey undersurfaces. an example of a C-47 apparently finished in Spec 3-1 319 and light grey can be found on page 102 of Roger A. Freeman's "RAF of WW2 in color"

he goes on to list FS 595b color FS 14084 as the closest to OD 41 but with a matt finish he also lists FS 34088 as the closest match for Spec 3-1 319. Humbrol 155 is listed as the closest paint for models.
very unusually he lists no FS number close to ANA 613 but does mention
BS 381C 298 Olive Drab in British service as a modern equivelent of ANA 613

"Air Force Colors Volume 2 ETO & MTO 1942-1945" by Dana Bell states :
light grey 602 is somewhat darker than FS 36440 and ANA 620
sea grey 603 is greyer than FS 36118
olive drab 613 is substantially darker than and greener than FS 34087
light gull grey 620 : good match, 620 is slightly darker than 36440.

he makes no mention of Spec 3-1 319 olive drab, but lists an Army Corps of Engineers color Olive Drab #39 (wich I have no other reference on) as
"slighly greener than OD 613 ,substantially darker and greener thanFS 34087"
this only complicate matters and suggests there might have been four shades of olive drab in WWII.