Norwegian Ju88/He111 colours - Grey or Black/Green

[markjsheppard]

Hi all

Well as everyone is aware a Ju88 and He111 were recovered from Josvatnet, Norway in the summer.

Over the last few weeks there has been a lot of discussion between various people, groups, experts on the colours (privately, not on TOCH or elsewhere).

The differences relate to 'opinions' within Germany and elsewhere and what is being seen in Norway.

We know, both aircraft were painted 70/71/65 at least prior to the invasion of Norway.

The difficult part is whether they were repainted prior to the invasion of Norway and /or operations over the North Sea. The possibility is there that the upper colours were repainted to either a single or combination of two greys.

Also the underside of the Ju88 in places was a very light blue/white colour which overpainted the RLM65. (More like RLM76)

Is there any more evidence that the greys were at least being used. I need historical documents/references/colour photos as at the moment it is what we see verses what we should have according to general opinion!

Anyone help!

regards

Mark

[Modeldad]

I hope someone raised the issue of the effect of minerals, salts and chemicals in the water on the paint.

The fact that the metal did not decay or corrodes does not mena that paint was unaffected.

[David Ransome]

Hi,

I personally feel that the last comments are worth considering. I believe that the two tone green and blue camo colours would have applied, and it would be most unusual for just these two aircraft to be in a different colour scheme. At this stage of the war there were apparently no problems with paint supply.

In my collection of He111 parts that I disposed of last year I had many fuselage parts that had come from underwater recoveries, some of which came from Norway. One panel in particular, from the gondola of the He111 now with the RAF museum workshops (?), at first glance appeared almost white but, where the paint had been protected, it showed as definite 65! Interestingly for modellers the interior was painted a light olive green. I have had the same colour changes on parts from the UK. On examination the paint surface was unbroken, ie the same level and not different layers.

I also had some top of wing joint covers, the paint on one of these at first glance appeared to be a fairly even, almost grey, colour. With a little bit of polishing down the two greens appeared! I have often been amazed by the colour differences on one panel where one half has been buried in mud/silt and the other has been in the water. If you look at some of the 'on ground' wrecks around Norway itself you will see many different effects of weathering on paint, even on the same aircraft!

Hope this helps!

Regards

David

[TormodChristiansen]

I have added some pictures of both of the Planes, Wnr 119 and Wnr 113 (the one with only the tail section remaining) They are from September 28th last year. I haven't been able to post all of them before now, because of certain restrictions. I have scheduled a trip to Gardermoen sometime in this month, so I wil add more after I returns from it


http://www.ju88.net/u4tk-2.html

regards,
Tormod Christiansen.

[markjsheppard]

Tormod

I am sure you will hear from Guttorm all the discussions we have had regarding cplours, especially on the Ju88 but also the He111.

The discussion was based on the opinion that the colours on the Ju88 were 70/71/65 (at least when manufactured). The Stkz was painted over with grey, this is visible and the U4+TK codes added. Guttorm has confirmed the general colour overall is grey to upper sufaces and white to the underside which is not 'standard'.

The grey upper colour is thought to be a possibility though as as both units were operating over the North Sea where this would be the best possible colour. Unfortunately here seems to be no documentation relating to these or any Kampfgeschwaders being instructed to paint over the upper surfaces in grey (not saying it did not).

Goof side picture. Would like to see some photos of the upper wings.

http://www.ju88.net/gallerybilder/u4tk-2/u4tk-4.JPG

If anyone else has an opinion, please comment.

regards

Mark

[Graham Boak]

As this was very early in the war, and the Luftwaffe already had a dedicated maritime colour scheme of Greens 72/73, it would seem (to me) odd that these aircraft would have been overpainted grey. Perhaps later in the war, when experience might have suggested shortcomings in 72/72 as a scheme, this would be more reasonable. However, the Luftwaffe does seem to have retained 72/73 for many years, suggesting that it was considered at least adequate.

For two different types from two different units to have the same (or very similar) oddball scheme is also very curious.

However, this is only an opinion, and I await further analysis of the relics with great interest.

[atckyrre]

Without really being able to contribute in this particular case I would still like to share my experience when pulling out parts of a Heinkel 111 from marshy water at Andøya in Northern Norway. IIRC the plane crashed some time in 1940. The colours were still very crisp and when inspecting the parts, including some pieces of canvas, I found definite proof of what the general consensus is regarding the colours 70/71 and 65. The Black Green was very dark green, the Dunkelgrun was lighter but not a lot and then the Hellblau was - well - a light blue. I'd say that the Polly S colours are pretty much bang on.
Unfortunately I didn't take any pics and I put the parts back in the tarn. I know where it is though

Kyrre

[TormodChristiansen]

Originally Posted by markjsheppard

Tormod

I am sure you will hear from Guttorm all the discussions we have had regarding cplours, especially on the Ju88 but also the He111.

The discussion was based on the opinion that the colours on the Ju88 were 70/71/65 (at least when manufactured). The Stkz was painted over with grey, this is visible and the U4+TK codes added. Guttorm has confirmed the general colour overall is grey to upper sufaces and white to the underside which is not 'standard'.

The grey upper colour is thought to be a possibility though as as both units were operating over the North Sea where this would be the best possible colour. Unfortunately here seems to be no documentation relating to these or any Kampfgeschwaders being instructed to paint over the upper surfaces in grey (not saying it did not).

Goof side picture. Would like to see some photos of the upper wings.

http://www.ju88.net/gallerybilder/u4tk-2/u4tk-4.JPG

If anyone else has an opinion, please comment.

regards

Mark

Hello Mark,

Thanks for your comments. I will try get some pictures of the upper wings, if you or anyone else on this board have other specific areas that could be "Kodak moments", please let me know about it, and I will try get this area photographed.

regards,
Tormod