First kill with oblique cannon

[rldunn]

When was the first night victory claimed with oblique mounted cannons? If this was with the Do 217, when was the first Me 110 victory with this weapon? When was the weapon in use by more than one unit?

Rick

[Jon]

Hello Ridunn

Interesting question and one i would like to see answered also.
I think Rudlof Schonert experimented with an MG17 in 1941 set at an angle of 70 degrees but do not know if his experements involved RAF bombers !

[Franek Grabowski]

Cannon or machine gun? Defiant was the first WWII night fighter able to attack from below but the technique dated back to WWI and to modifications introduced by Foster on his SE-5A.

[rldunn]

Question is: Oblique cannon armament by German NFs in WW2. First use, first success, and general useage.

RLD

[Tony Williams]

It isn't entirely clear. The following extract is from
Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45 by Emmanuel Gustin and myself:

As a practical weapon system the Schräge Musik was introduced by Rudolf Schönert, who in 4/NJG2 had experimented with upward-firing installations on the Do 17Z‑10 and Do 217J‑1 amidst considerable scepticism from his superiors and his peers. These installations were probably never fired in anger, and success remained absent until Hauptmann Schönert became commander of II/NJG5 in late 1942. A Bf 110 was modified by Paul Mahle to carry two upward-firing MG-FFM cannon, which were installed at the rear of the cockpit. Their closeness to the rear gunner must have been uncomfortable, but on the other hand they were easily accessible to replace the ammunition drums. The Revi 16N gunsight was modified to allow the reflector to be placed above the pilot’s head, while the sight itself was further to the rear. (Later the cockpit canopy was given a bulge that allowed an easier installation of the sight.) The first nightfighters equipped with upward-firing guns entered operations in the late summer of 1943, and during Bomber Command’s attack on Peenemünde in the night of 17/18 August 1943 the system finally had a good opportunity to prove itself. It contributed a lot to the big successes of the German nightfighter force in the winter of 1943-1944; one German estimate was that Schräge Musikaccounted for 80% of the British losses. These culminated on 30 March, when Bomber Command lost 95 of the 795 aircraft sent to bomb Nuremberg.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

[rldunn]

Tony

This suggests there was no such victory prior to May 43 (such as Schoenert's victory on 21 Apr 43). This would leave the Japanese as the first to employ this arrangement. Is this your understanding?

Rick Dunn

[Smith]

I trust no one minds me reinvigorating an older thread. My interest in this stems from the fact that my Uncle, rear gunner in Lancaster EE147 of 619 squadron, lost his life over Peenemunde on 17/18 August 1943, in as yet unexplained circumstances (that's a whole other thread some day).

Martin Middlebrook alleges in his book about the raid that this night was the first in which Schräge Musik was used "operationally" by which I suspect he means "not experimentally", and I note above Tony, you (and your co-author Emmanuel Gustin) argue that proposition a little differently, as Schräge Musik having "a good opportunity to prove itself".

I note also on another thread hereabouts (RodM re. Ultra) that (RAF) aircraft damaged by upward directed fire were assumed to have been damaged by light flak.

And Hinchcliffe in his book "The Other Battle" discusses the 'scarecrow' phenomenon reported by crews (large fires and explosions in the bomber stream) as most likely being aircraft burning then exploding as a result of Schräge Musik attacks. But this being misconstrued as above.

My question ... was Schräge Musik operational for the best part of two years without the RAF being at all aware of it ? What a coup.

Don

[Tony Williams]

Originally Posted by smidon

My question ... was Schräge Musik operational for the best part of two years without the RAF being at all aware of it ? What a coup.

Another quote from FG:WW2

"The RAF has been criticised for its slowness in identifying the cause of these losses and finding some countermeasure. In Luftwaffe circles it was assumed that Schräge Musik would be of value only as long as the RAF was unaware of its existence, a consideration which prompted a panic when, on 28 April 1944, a Bf 110G with oblique cannon and Lichtenstein SN‑2 radar landed in Switzerland. (A deal was reached in which the Swiss were sold 12 Bf 109G‑6 fighters for a price of six million francs, and the aircraft was destroyed.) As mentioned above, there was a long history of experiments with upward-firing firing guns in Britain, and even some operational use. It should not have been a surprise that the Germans would employ a similar weapons system. On the other hand, this knowledge alone would not have produced an effective countermeasure. If the crews of Bomber Command were unaware of the existence of Schräge Musik right until the end of the war, the cause is probably that those in higher ranks felt that no useful purpose was served by informing them."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

[George Hopp]

Interesting thought on the Bf 110G with the oblique cannon that landed in Switzerland at 02:17 on 28 April 1944. But, I doubt that Lw Headquarters was even aware that the a/c had those cannon, since they were unit-built and so not on any official inventory. At the time they were concerned about the FuG 220 radar that had just been installed in that a/c, and which was not being jammed by the British.

In fact, it would not be until August 1944 that the 1st Bf 110 with the production oblique cannon unit would roll off the production lines. The unit-built oblique cannon a/c, Bf 110 G-4, Wr. 6309, had gone to GWF on 30 Nov 43, and was generally damned, and the 1st prototype installation was ready only on 5 May 44. Although all this was very slow, one must consider that the Bf 110 had very limited space to house any more equipment, whereas both the Do 217 and the Ju 88 had only to use a part of their large fuselages to house the cannon. Does anyone know when these a/c first used oblique cannon?

[Chris Goss]

I interviewed a Flt Cdr from 102 Sqn who was convinced in September/October 1943 that the Germans were getting adept at shooting down bombers from underneath at an oblique angle and is convinced that his demise on 22 Oct 43 was due to such a weapon