|
Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East Please use this forum to discuss the Air War in the Far East. |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
camouflage question
The 49th FG when working up in Australia in the Spring of 1942 received some "reverse" lend-lease P-40s from the RAF. Were these in Dark Earth, Dark Green and Sky Type S matching RAF colors, or where they in a US interpretation of these paint colors attempting to match RAF colors, including a pale blue instead of Sky-S?
|
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Re: camouflage question
1) depends on what model of P-40
2) depends on if it had USAAF or RAF serial numbers. (or both) 3) if they were painted here in the USA they were most likely Dark Green/Medium brown/light Grey (no pale blue) if the RAF re-painted them after delivery then they could be in BSC's (British Standard Colour) any possibility of posting a photo or two ??? |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Re: camouflage question
Tricky one - a veritable can of worms. I thought you would be flooded with replies on this!
Upper surfaces: Du Pont DUCO 71-013 Dark Green - close to FS 34092, Methuen 25-26 F 5, Pantone 553U. Du Pont DUCO 71-009 Dark Earth - close to FS 30219, Methuen 6 D 5-4, Pantone 4635U-4645U. This colour is frequently referred to as "sandy earth". Du Pont also used another, darker 'Dark Earth' - 71-065, closer to 30118, associated with desert schemes but it may have been used later in the P-40E production run resulting in a lower contrast upper scheme. Under surfaces: Curtiss were initially confused by references to 'Sky'. There were at least three identified undersurface colours: Aircraft Gray, a pale gray close to FS 36473 and believed to be the intended match for RAF Sky Grey. Pastel blue, probably based on the Spec 14057 colour #27 Light Blue - a slightly greener version of FS 35526 or a lighter, bluer version of FS 35414, believed to be the intended match for RAF Sky Blue. Neutral Gray - possibly an anomalous, expedient colour. For specifics: ET603 (Star Dust) undersurfaces probably Neutral Gray; ET604 (wreck examined by Geoff Pentland) probably Pastel Blue (described as "darker and stronger than Sky Blue" with a greenish caste - may even have been a deteriorated Azure Blue. ET615 (Scatterbrain) probably Aircraft Gray (Sky Grey). Bear in mind that supply demands could and did result in paint batch variations and the use of expedient colours. The demands on Curtiss at this time meant that production could not be held up because paint of the exact colour was not available. This is a summarised response. The subject of P-40 camouflage deserves a detailed and definitive study in its own right. Last edited by Nicholas; 10th October 2006 at 14:46. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Re: camouflage question
Thanks to you both for the very good answers!
John |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Re: camouflage question
John
The question is were they really reverse L-L. Several batches of P-40s were delivered to USAAF with factory applied British camo (BSC was not in use by then), so this may be misleading. Cheers |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Re: camouflage question
again, let's get down to some specifics.
exactly which aircraft are you interested in? a subject for a model ? if so what kit and version ? A.F.A.I.K. - B.S.C.'s were actually made official as early as 1931. some aircraft were 're-possessed' aircraft. originally ordered by the British and received US-equivalent colors for the colours requested by the British and even some with RAF serials , but after the attack on Pearl Harbor many of these aircraft were then given USAAF insignia and sent to bolster the defenses at US bases. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Re: camouflage question
DTD was the standard and all the L-L aircraft were painted due to needs of their receipients, therefore even late P-40s received factory RAF camouflage and several such aircraft found their way to USAAF.
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Re: camouflage question
Not to confuse things further, but here's another perspective on the topic of early P-40 colors (from pp 14-15 of Osprey's American Volunteer Group Colours and Markings by Terrill Clements):
Since the AVG's Tomahawks were taken from production lines working on a British contract, it has been widely assumed that Curtiss painted them in exact matches of the Dark Earth, Dark Green and Sky colours in use on RAF fighters in 1940-41. In fact, it is now clear that Curtiss -- and other American manufacturers as well -- were not so fastidious, and instead typically used paints from their current suppliers that were close matches for the colours specified by foreign customers. Most of these paints were likely based on current US military camouflage standards.Clements' book, incidentally, is a 'must have' if AVG colors and aircraft are your thing, with numerous color photos and color profiles by Jim Laurier. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Re: camouflage question
This post reinforces the observations already made in my post - which seems to have been completely ignored by the others who are posting on this subject.
In addition to the dark green it appears that some P-40Es may have had Olive Drab applied with the Dark Earth in accordance with the later rationalised export colours established by the JAC in early 1942 - perhaps an endorsement of a practice already begun through expediency. References to P-40Es in China in "desert colours" of two browns with photographs showing a decidely low contrast scheme suggest the possibility of some aircraft camouflaged in Olive Drab and Dark Earth and there is certainly primary evidence of P-40 aircraft in South Africa in this precise finish, with various underside colours - including LIGHT BLUES! This may also have something to do with the Curtiss decision to complete all P-40E1 aircraft in the "RAF scheme". Aircraft manufacturers were under intense pressure to produce machines in quantity and at speed, resulting in both expediency and improvisation. As stated before, production could not stop just because paint to the exact specification was unavailable and paint supply was unlikely to remain constant to the needs of production or, more importantly, destination. Added to these exigencies of wartime production and supply were the human failings attributable to misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the official directives. In early 1942, at a time when the Japanese army and navy threatened both India and Australia, Curtiss was having to produce sufficient P-40 aircraft to meet the demands of several users in at least two theatres of war, the Middle East and the Far East. Destinations for the supply and replacement of P-40 aircraft altered rapidly and at short notice with the changing fortunes of war. Losses occurring during supply had to be made up, often by diverting unsuitably painted aircraft from one theatre to another. In February 1942, following heavy combat losses of P-40 aircraft in the Phillipines and Java, 25 crated replacement P-40s had to be abandoned to the Japanese at Tjilatjap and 32 more were lost when the USS Langley was sunk. These two losses alone represented 3.8% of P-40E1 production. It was a time of grave danger and uncertainty for the Allies. The P-40 was at the time the best fighter available in quantity to the USAAC and despite being since maligned by many aviation writers it was in fact a reliable, rugged and well-armed aircraft able to challenge and even deny Japanese air superiority until more advanced designs appeared with which to turn the tide. In the hands of both the USAAC and RAAF it was crucial to the successful defence of Northern Australia and its contribution to the air campaign in China far exceeded the number of aircraft actually deployed there. To Curtiss at that time official paint directives were a nicety, adhered to wherever possible but only as closely as paint supplies and production priorities allowed. And this before in-theatre maintenance units added their own, sometimes non-standard, over paints to confuse things even further! |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Re: more Bits and peices
I want to tank everyone for all their great replies and insite. As Nicholas said, it did open up a can of worms!
I asked this question, originally, in regards to some on-going research on the career of George E. Preddy. He went to Australia in early 1942 with the 49th and flew P-40s with the 49th until June of '42 when he was severely injured in a mid-air collision. His P-40 was "Tarheel". Preddy in his diary says that they flew to a depot and flew some back. You would have to assume that they were a mixed bag. Several were lost enroute. I will have to go back a read again to see when this happened. The 49th did not have enough aircraft on hand when the new pilots arrived for them to fly. I'll work on this. The question arose because someone is planning a painting. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Friendly fire WWII | Brian | Allied and Soviet Air Forces | 803 | 8th July 2023 15:47 |
NEW BOOK - Fw 190 D Camouflage & Markings - Pt. 1 | David E. Brown | Focke-Wulf Fw 190D Camouflage & Markings | 71 | 30th March 2014 23:16 |
Hans-Joachim Jabs Question | Larry Hickey | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 6 | 9th May 2006 17:10 |
Fw 190 A-6/R11 camouflage question | Simon Schatz | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 0 | 1st November 2005 09:27 |
305 Sqn (Polish) Mosquito SM-G "RZ399" question | Kari Lumppio | Allied and Soviet Air Forces | 4 | 9th February 2005 23:19 |