Soviet SB-bomber shot down in southern Lake Ladoga 11 November 1942

[Carl-Fredrik Geust]

On 11 November 1942 a Soviet SB-bomber was shot down by ”two Bf 109-fighters” in southern Lake Ladoga, crashing near Morye on the southern Karelian Isthmus. Among the killed on board the SB was the state security official, Commissar 3-rd Rank (equivalent to Lt-General) Pavel Kuprin (head of NKVD Special Department of the Red Army Northern Front).
As no operations of Finnish AF are recorded in this area on 11 Nov 1942, the SB was apparently shot down by fighters from the JG 54 detachment headed by Capt Hans Philipp (based at Petäjärvi, Sakkola on the northern Karelian Isthmus).
Are documents of the Philipp-detachment available, or is this combat recorded in the corresponding Prien-volume (unforunately not available to me)?

[Snautzer]

Heinz Gotz claim a li-2 8 at the same time and quadrant (PQ) 29 323.

[Carl-Fredrik Geust]

Hello Snautzer,
thank you for your quick answer - please give more details and references: who was Heinz Gotz, did he serve in the Philipp detachment? Do you possibly mean Hans Götz?

[Snautzer]

Hans Götz 2./JG54.

[Carl-Fredrik Geust]

Thank you Snautzer,
I have still a question: in the detailled Wikipedia-article about Hans Götz (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_G%C3%B6tz) with multiple references to the Prien-book series, there is however no mention of a shot down Li-2 aircraft on 11 November 1942 in PQ 29323, but on this day only a downed P-40 in PQ 11763 over Lake Ladoga (re: Prien vol. 9/III page 95)!

Please comment (preferably with a reference for the mentioned Li-2)!


If possible I would be very grateful if someone could send me scans of this section of Prien´s book (which apparently refers to the operation of Hans Philipp´s detachment in Petäjärvi, Finland summer-autumn 1942).

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Carl

No idea what source Snautzer is using.
On 11 Nov 1942 no Li-2 (or any other twin-engined aircraft) was claimed by any of the JG 54 units.
I checked all their claims in Prien's book

I am extremely lousy with the so called PlQu system, but None of the eight claims made by all three
Staffeln that day are anywhere near any 29xxx digit range. All are in 00xxx, 10xxx, 11xxx and 90xxx
ranges.

However there was a claim for a four-engined Tupolev TB-7 by Ofw Kurt Olsen (3./JG 54) 06.30H
in PlQu 11751. The problem with German claims is their skill in aircraft ID.
Did Olsen know that the TB-7 was four-engined or did he just claim a multi engined aircraft and put
TB-7 as something he thought it was? No idea...

If you are still interested to look for yourself I will be happy to scan any relevant pages for you!

Cheers
Stig

[Carl-Fredrik Geust]

The aircraft shot down by Ofw Kurt Olsen was in fact the SB-courier aircraft of the Arkhangelsk Administration of the Civil Air Fleet (GVF) carrying Commissar 3-rd Rank Pavel Kuprin as passenger, which crashed in Lake Ladoga near Morye (PlQu 11751) on 11 November 1942. It is strange that Olsen misidentified the 2-engine SB-bomber for the 4-engine TB-7! (With thanks to Stig for additional infornation.)

[Stig Jarlevik]

I also believe that is the only conclusion Carl

Would be interesting to know what Snautzer actually was quoting from!

Since Johannes Matthews was kind enough to send over the claims list for that day, there is nothing
even looking like a claim for a Li-2 by anyone

Cheers
Stig

[Kari Lumppio]

Tjänare!

This Laatokan Rannikkoprikaatin Esikunta ( Ladoga Coastal Brigade HQ) war diary page may be of help? I hope it at least does not mud things up more.

https://digihakemisto.net/item/23860...6151997788/723


Cheers,
Kari