Sources of Information

[alcluith]

I am trying to get details of Luftwaffe damage and losses from June to December 1940.

The "Battle of Britain Then and Now" list quite a lot of them but from my own research I am sure that it is not a definative list. Are there any other good sources of information?

rgds

Drew Davidson

[Peter Cornwell]

Drew,

Given that it only covers part of the time-frame that concerns you, I would be interested to learn in exactly what sense you believe the Lw losses listed in BoBT&N to be incomplete. Inevitably, achieving a truly 'definitive' listing is always doubtful, but I tried very hard to make the losses as complete as possible, though that was 27 years ago & I accept most readily that research has moved on as other contemporary sources have since become available. The reason for my interest is that I revisited my loss lists for Stephen Bungay's 'The Most Dangerous Enemy' only seven years ago & found few changes of any particular significance then necessary. So I will be fascinated to hear (as I am sure will others) exactly what your own research has revealed and your sources.

[alcluith]

Peter

I am researching my second cousins "Claims" and out of the 6 I have only been able to match 2 possibles to the information in the BOBT&N.

14 Aug Do17 Damaged 18.30 Dungeness

16 Aug He111 Destroyed 17.10 Brighton
Possible 7/KG55 He111P(1582)

16 Aug He111 Damaged 17.10 Brighton

18 Aug Do215 Destroyed 13.45 Kenley

18 Aug Bf109 Destroyed 13.45 Kenley

01 Oct Bf110 Damaged 10.45 West Needles
Possible I/ZG26 Bf110D(4212)

01 Nov Z1007 Damaged 16.30 Dover
This encounter is well documented in several books

In a post elsewhere in this forum there is a thread regarding 5 Dec 1940 JG26 being attacked with losses but no knowledge of what squadron was responsible. From records we have on the day my cousin was killed around the time of the attack he was returning from chasing fighters out to sea, so it is possible that he was involved in the attack on JG26.

When I started my research there was very little on his career in the books that I was advised as being "the Bibles" of the Battle of Britain.
Since then I have been able to gather a considerable amount of information. Most of his career I have been able to substantiate but I would like to be able to try to confirm or otherwise his claims.

I felt that there were too few likely matched to his claims and therefore it is possible that there are some entries missing from BOBT&N.

Drew

[Peter Cornwell]

Drew,

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulty in substantiating P/O C. R. Young's claims but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[John Vasco]

Drew,

What you are experiencing is what every researcher has encountered: too few losses for (far too many) claims.

Try these little gems:
1) marry up 74 Sqdn.'s claims at mid-day-ish on 11th August with Lw losses;
2) marry up ZG 26's claims with RAF losses on 18th August; and finally,
3) find me the Bf 110 that Nicholson, VC, of 249 Sqdn. shot down on 16th August.

You have to approach things with a completely open mind, and accept that in the speeds of combat at that time, claims were made that were simply not valid. Other claims were made that were simply lies. I'm not saying that is the case in respect of your relative, but there are certain claims that some researchers know are complete fantasy.

[Peter Cornwell]

John,

To be fair to Nicholson, he didn't claim a Bf110 on 16 August 1940. That particular piece of 1940 mythology gained credence later.

[John Vasco]

Peter,

You and I know that, as do some others. We know how that came to be in the combat report. I was using it simply as an illustration for Drew. I didn't mean it to be a smart comment in any way, as I did not with the other two also. We know what Drew is up against.

"Stück Puck", I say, Peter, and you can put your epaulettes on now!

Best to you, mate,


John V.

[alcluith]

John, Peter

As I stated I am new to this aspect of research,usually genealogy but from family verbal history I had found this relation has been killed in WWII but with little information. His parents were in Malaya and the family had lost contact with them since the outbreak of WWII.
It was only middle of last year was I able to put a name to him and make contact with his family, now in Australia.
Although participating in the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain, very little was written about him apart from one possible claim in June and the incident with the Italians. Even Norman Franks "Fighter Command Losses Vol 1" had missed out his death (This being another so called "Bible").

The Italian incident is well documented although they insist there there was never any engagement.

In Norman Frank's book "Battle of Britain" He details, for the 16 Aug, 615 Sqn engagement near Brighton with JAP McClintock attacking one He111 and P/O CR Young attacking two others. He details Young's attacks resulting in one damaged and one crashing into the sea (matching Young's claim). A very graphical account of the engagement but in The BOBT&N only 1 He111 shot down. Was this McClintock or Young and what happened to the other two?
This raised my thoughts that prompted my first question -" Where can I find other records for the Lufwaffe losses?"

I do not appreciate "Smart" remarks back from those with more knowledge but a little guidance as John tried to show with his example.
I am fully aware of the discrepancies in claims against actual, or how hard it is the confirm claims.
One thing I have learned in my short time in this research is don't believe all you read and the "Bibles" as it's namesake is only one person's interpretation of events.

Incidentally P/O Charlie Young's father Robert Guy Young was and RAF Officer in WW1 re-enlisting, after Charlie's death, in the Far East Working to keep the Airfields open in an attempt to prevent the fall of Singapore and spent 5 years in Penang POW camp.
It was only this year that the family have received Charlie's medals.

Drew Davidson

[John Vasco]

Drew,

As I pointed out previously, I wasn't trying to be smart, but merely trying to highlight the problems with trying to match up claims to losses. I don't know how widely read you are on the Battle of Britain, but those examples I gave are pertinent. 74 seriously overclaimed during the lunchtime engagement over the Thames estuary on 11th August. I went into great depth looking at this action, as it involved Erprobungsgruppe 210, the unit which was the subject of my first book. It drove me nuts! ZG 26's claims on 18th August are way, way, beyond the actual RAF losses. These are the kind of things you are up against when you start looking at claims/losses. However, don't give up on what you are doing - research is a wonderful thing, and you can gain great satisfaction from solving issues.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Drew

With regard to your cousins claims, they are all listed by John Foreman in his first book about the victory claims of Fighter Command.

Regarding his death you can see it listed in John Foremans book Battle of Britain, the forgotten months.

One discrepancy is that Foreman list the Bf 109 claim on Aug 18th as a probable!

I also note that Young made his claims with three different units

All the best
Stig