Luftwaffe P51 shot down by US P47 ?

[Alex Smart]

Hi,

Some where i have read that one of those Luftwaffe Captured P51 Mustang's was shot down by a US P47 Thunderbolt.
IIRC the Mustang came down somewhere in Austria.
Again IIRC this was in early 1945.

Any details or info will be welcomed.

Alex

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

Just as an update .

It now looks as though the event was not P51 v P47 but P51 v P38.

The P38 was from the 82nd Fighter Group.

Has anyone details of the encounter ?

alex

[kaki3152]

Alex,


This is the account from Adorimini:"About 30 miles southwest of Linz,Austria, an early model P-51 (B or C) painted olive drab made an attack out of the clouds on several 95th Sq P-38s,after tailing them for some time...Lt. Coulson turned head on into the P-51 to turn it away...Hwever, on this time, the P-51 opened fire,at a range of of 4,000 feet (sic) and continued firing. Coulson finally fired one short burst and saw strikes on its canopy and engine. The Mustang rolled over,went straight down and crashed into a mountain"
It was noted by the P-38 pilots that the Mustang had no national insignia nor a red spinner which idntified the 15th AFs P-51s. A check with all the Mustang units in Italy confirmed that the plane was not one of theirs

[George Hopp]

Sorry, but the entire incident sounds unbelievable. German P-51s tended to be brightly marked, and carried very large Balkan crosses, so they wouldn't be shot down by German fighters. And, they stayed well away from any combat because they didn't carry ammunition, and didn't want to lose a valuable a/c.

This all sounds much like all those B-17s that tried to tuck into the formations of other B-17s and then supposedly fired on them. It turned out to be US B-17s that had lost the other planes in their element, looking for friendly protection. If you look at some of the German gun camera footage, you'll see that the the fighters just barrel in and fire, and it's almost impossible to see national markings. In other words, a German crew in a B-17 would be just as likely to be shot down as an American one. The same goes for that "Luftwaffe P51" that you heard about.

[Alex Smart]

Hi,

Thank you for the replies.

The pilot, 2Lt. Eldon E. Coulson was indeed credited with the shooting down of an axis P51 on the 29th October 1944.
This turned out to be his one and only kill (as far as I can find out).

Further to which I see that he was killed in action on the 7th November 1944 MACR 9696 (Anyone got a copy they can scan and send to me please ?).

The date 7th November 1944 is not however laid down in stone.

For the AFHRA and NARA sites has his date of death as being Thursday 8th November 1945.

This date on their sites (and on their documents possibly ) cannot be correct as the war in Europe was long ended by November of 1945.
MACR date KIA 7-11-1944.

Coulson was not a POW nor wounded AFAIK, so how do they arrive at 1945?

All for now

Alex

[kaki3152]

Alex/George,

Yes, P-51 Mustangs flow by Rechlin and 2nd/ Vband der OKL were painted with bright yellow markings to help in identification.

Possible explanations:

The P-51 was flown by the Hungarian AF. There are some hints that the HAF captured a flyable P-51 Mustang, but no more information has surfaced(at least that I know of).
Mistaken identity, RAF Mustang? There was one USAAF 15th AF P-51 casualty on October 29th,1944. It was a P-51D from the 332nd FG, not a razorback P-51 B/C.
There are some things about WWII we will never know.

Carlos

[Alex Smart]

Hi Carlos,

the 332FG a/c would that be 44-14465 ?

Any info on RAF, RAAF or SAAF P51 loose on this date ?

Thanks

Alex

[Charles Foree]

A flyable P-51 would have been a valuable commodity to the Axis, particularly in the reconnaissance role after allied numbers began to overwhelm the Luftwaffe. Maybe the pilot "shadowing" the 38s never actually spotted them until the last moment? Certainly taking such a prize into combat would be an unpopular decision with his superiors...

Were any D. 520s lost that day?

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Hi,

The pilot, 2Lt. Eldon E. Coulson was indeed credited with the shooting down of an axis P51 on the 29th October 1944.
This turned out to be his one and only kill (as far as I can find out).

Further to which I see that he was killed in action on the 7th November 1944 MACR 9696 (Anyone got a copy they can scan and send to me please ?).

The date 7th November 1944 is not however laid down in stone.

For the AFHRA and NARA sites has his date of death as being Thursday 8th November 1945.

This date on their sites (and on their documents possibly ) cannot be correct as the war in Europe was long ended by November of 1945.
MACR date KIA 7-11-1944.

Coulson was not a POW nor wounded AFAIK, so how do they arrive at 1945?

All for now

Alex

The official date of death in American databases is often not the true death date. Most of the times it is one year and one day after the date the man went MIA. I have found numerous cases of this both for aircrews and ship crews (more of the latter).
Crews of missing submarines were often declared dead only after the war, when they can't be found in Japanese POW camps.

So this pilot went MIA on 7 Nov 1944 and as no trace of him was found and no proof that he died on this day he was declared dead one year and a day after the date: 8 Nov 1945

[Nick Beale]

A flyable P-51 would have been a valuable commodity to the Axis, particularly in the reconnaissance role after allied numbers began to overwhelm the Luftwaffe.

Another point of view is that it would have been a complete liability. There were quite enough friendly fire incidents on all sides when flying one's own machines, let alone enemy ones. And that's leaving aside the spares, fuel and lubricants you'd need to secure from wrecks etc.

My guess is that this was yet another case of mistaken identity, as so often throughout the war.

[--RvB--]

Possible explanations:

The P-51 was flown by the Hungarian AF. There are some hints that the HAF captured a flyable P-51 Mustang, but no more information has surfaced(at least that I know of).


Hi!

The Royal Hungarian Air Force have never captured any flyable P-51. There were many emergency landed Mustangs in Hungary, but none of them was repaired to flyable conditions, most of them were seriously damaged.

Regards.
-RvB-

[kaki3152]

Thanks for the clarification.


Carlos

[Alex Smart]

Hi RvB,

It would be just great if you could supply me with the serial numbers of those P51's you refer too in your reply.

As to the RHAF or HAF useing or not useing the P51.

What makes you so certain ?

What referecnces did you use to arrive at that conclusion ?

Whatever the outcome of the Hungarian AF question it does not alter the fact that the P38 pilot was credited with a P51 that had camoflage and No markings .

From what I have so far NO USAAF P51 was lost over Austria on that day.

I still await replies from readers with info of any RAF/SAAF/RAAF P51 Mustang

being lost over Austria on this day.


Alex

[Franek Grabowski]

I still await replies from readers with info of any RAF/SAAF/RAAF P51 Mustang being lost over Austria on this day.

There were none - they were not flying there. If it was not P-51 then it must be some German aircraft, perhaps a fighter painted in a different way or even training type like Ar 96 or D.520C-1.

[Alex Smart]

Hi Franek,

Thanks for clearing the RAF/SAAF/RAAF question for me.

And Laurent, I do not know that he was reported as MIA.
from what I have so far he was KIA on the date 7/11/44.
I await the MACR report. perhaps that has 7/11/1945 on it ?

All for now

Alex

[Laurent Rizzotti]

You can check the American War Dead Database on the Net. It is listing only 40% of the American dead, those still buried overseas, buried at sea during the war or missing (by the way, those entered as missing in the DB and recovered since are still in the base with the comment 'remains recovered'. Both case I know were buried in Arlington).

The site is http://www.abmc.gov/searchww.htm.

As I said, the date may be right, or be one day and one year after the MIA date, or just be after the war when authorities concluded the man was dead, but date and place was unknown (this is the case with people known to be captured that then disappeared).

For your man, the site gave:

Eldon E. Coulson

Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army Air Forces

Service # O-715478

95th Fighter Squadron, 82nd Fighter Group

Entered the Service from: Kansas
Died: 8-Nov-45
Missing in Action or Buried at Sea
Tablets of the Missing at Sicily-Rome American Cemetery
Nettuno, Italy Awards: Air Medal with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters
And that was my source to say he was missing. Also the death date in 1945, exactly one year and a day after the loss date of the MACR, strongly suggests a MIA case.

As for identifying its possible target, I think it can be any single-engine fighters. It if really attacked the P-38s, that are hard to mistake with anything else, it should be German, not US or RAF&Co. Then a Bf109 is more probable than a Fw190.

[Alex Smart]

Thank you Laurent :) ,


That was the point I was making.

It should be 1944 if KIA.

Also the Memorial site has the same.

I am wondering if it indeed could have been a D.520 as has been mentioned by others, anyone have any losses for that type for this day over Austria ?

Though others in the flight also Id'd the a/c as a P51, and i would have thought that they would have known one of their own so to speak.

Thanks again :)

Alex

[George Hopp]

"Though others in the flight also Id'd the a/c as a P51, and i would have thought that they would have known one of their own so to speak."

The best policy is never to take anything for granted. So, in reality, the a/c could have been any single-engined, low-wing a/c from either side, since the front lines in Italy had moved pretty far north by this time.

[Alex Smart]

Hello George,


I take nothing for granted , not even life these days.


Alex

[Kurtl12]

So, does anyone know witch aircraft 2Lt. Coulson flew when he went MIA? I am looking for the aircraft's serial.

Which source state that it was a P-51 that he downed on October 29th, 1944? The honor roll of the 82nd FG does not say anything...

Thanks - Kurtl

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

11/07/1944 - MACR 9696 P-38 serial number 43-28662.

See post number 3 on page one.

Credit for the P-51 was date 29th October 1944 also in a post on page one.

Lost over Hungary on the 29/10/44 was a Bf109G of JG 53, any details of pilot fate or reason for loss ?

RAF and US P51 Mustang Losses for 29/10/44

RAF
430 Sqn Mustang Mk.I - AM191 - Hit by Flak, Venlo - returned Cat E - Pilot RCAF Safe.
USAAF
P-51 MACR's 29/10/44
9586 - Italy - 441029 - P51D-10 - 44-14465 - 332FG/99FS - Davis, Alfonza W.
9587 - Italy - 441029 - P51B - 42-106559 - 31FG/309FS - Dorsch, Frederick J. jr.
9600 - Ger - 441029 -P51C-10 - 43-25108 - 332FG/100FS - Brewer, Fred L. jr.
10255 - Ger - 441029 - P51D-5 - 44-13561 - 354FG/356FS - Voes, Richard J.
10256 - Ger - 441029 - P51B-10 - 42-106701 - 354FG/353FS - Bowers, John R.
10257 - Ger - 441029 - P51C-10 - 42-103313 - 354FG/355FS - Meyler, Walter P.
10275 - FRA - 441029 - F-6B - 43-6360 - RG(P)/162TRS - Posey, George A.jr.
P-51 Accidents 29/10/44
India - P-51C-11 - 43-25239 - 51FS/Hq - GL - Mohanbari/Sta 9 - Hearn, Joseph E.
Italy - P-51C-10 - 43-24911 - 332FG/302FS - CRT - Ramitelli - Brooks, Milton R.
Italy - P-51C - 42-103957 - 332FG/99FS - LAC - San Severo - Saunders, Pearlee E.
Italy - P-51D - 44-13469 - 52FG/5FS - TOA - Madna - Mabe, Robert E.
Eng - P-51D-10 - 441029 - 361GF/376FS - CBLEF - Newborough - Volkman, Robert R.
Eng - P-51D-5 - 441029 - 361FG/165FS - FLEF - RAF Straubby - Powell, Homer G.



Alex

[Kurtl12]

Alex, thanks for your quick response.
I've just read MACR 9587 about Capt. Frederick DORSCH, KIA. The attached KSU report leads to Austria in the area south of Linz, NOT Italy. So according to the position where he got lost for me that's a hot candidate for 2Lt. Coulson's victory on October 29th, 1944. Do you agree?

Cheers, Kurtl

[ssg keay]

Seemingly Coulson and another pilot, Brewer, were shot down by Russian Yaks over what is nowadays Kosovo. Danny

[ssg keay]

Correction, they were shot down more likely over Serbia, just north of Krusevac.
It would be very interesting to see which Russian units were stationed there and might have claimed the shoot down of two fighters that day.

Danny

[ssg keay]

There is also the possibility that the US fighters were completely disorientated, as there is a recorded loss of two American aircraft in November 1944 at Nis, Serbia. This is about 60 miles I think from where the Americans thought they were. Danny