Ju 88 shot down by U-243 on 11 June 1944

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Hello, I have some questions about a Wekusta Ju 88 shot down by U-243 on 11 June 1944 off Norway.

Here is what I found so far:

During the night of 10-11 June 1944 U-243, that had sailed from Stavanger on 8 June, shot down an approaching aircraft in AN 2911 position. The aircraft flew over boat at a height of 40 meters and was too late in replying with recognition signals. After the aircraft crash it was identified as a Ju 88. The Wekusta 5 reported on 11 June the loss of the Ju 88 D-1 WNr 430678 D7+FN that was lost 200km NW Trondheim, Norway ( in Pl.Qu.06/Ost/8633), with four crew: Ofw. Erich Kubin (pilot), Gefr. Hans Wallenfang (radio) and Gefr. Werner Schnattler (Bw) were posted missing while WD-Insp. Werner Platz (meteorologist) was reported as killed, so probably his crew was found and identified by the submarine crew. According to a source, the submarine rescued another meteorologist, Wd. Ass. Günter Rudolph of Wekusta 3. The U-243 arrived at Bergen on 12 June

Sources used:
http://www.rafandluftwaffe.info/luftwaffe1.html
http://www.warcovers.dk/greenland/wekusta3.htm
http://www.warcovers.dk/greenland/wekusta5.htm
http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30348.htm
http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/index.html?boat=243

My questions:

1) what is a Bw (position of Werner Schnattler in crew) ?

2) has someone the time when U-243 shot down the Ju 88 ?

3) can someone confirm the crew of the Ju 88 ? Either there were two meteorologist aboard, one experienced inspector (Platz) and one less so (Rudoph, as an assistant), either there was a confusion in names.

Thanks in advance

[Nick Beale]

The only part I can answer is that Bw = "Bordwart". The British usually translated this as "flight mechanic", a technician who was part of the air crew.

[Peter D Evans]

Hi guys,

Perhaps of use, perhaps not... but from a published source, the following is reproduced from the excellent "Wekusta, Luftwaffe Meteorological Reconnaissance Units and Operations 1938-45" by J.A.Kington & F.Selinger [Flight Recorder Publications, 2006] and appears to show that there were two missions involving Ju88D's, one of Wekusta 7 and a second under Wekusta 3:

Wekusta 7 (page 112): "In the hectic days of June, with the Allied invasion in Normandy under way, a mission on the 11th to Jan Mayen failed. On the return leg about 300km (190miles) west of Trondheim, Offw Kubin, piloting Ju88D-1, D7+FN radioed an engine failure and was eventually reported missing with all his crew, including Wd Insp Werner Platz.

Wekusta 3 (page 75): "Operations continued as before, but on 11th June a Ju88D-1 with Wd Ass Günter Rudolph (Met B) was shot down by an unidentified German U-Boat on the outward leg of a weather sortie from Stravanger. Only the flight engineer survived and was rescued , the identities of the other crew members and aircraft are not recorded"

The author has added a numbered footnote to the U-Boat by saying that it was "probably one of the 11 U-Boats of the Mitte group which formed a defensive screen between Trondheim and Lindesnes in anticipation of an Allied invasion of Norway."

More pieces to add to the jigsaw :)

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

[Matti Salonen]

NVM of Wekusta 5 confirms these four crew members. NVM of Wekusta 3 has obviously not survived.

Matti

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Thanks to all. I was hoping that the book Wekusta will allow to reply my question.

I just check the Summary of Lutwaffe losses and there are two losses registered by Wekusta 5 this day: one aircraft missing due to enemy action, reported on 13 June, and one destroyed without enemy action on operational flight, reported on 14 June.

So it seems that two Ju 88 may have been lost these days, one to engine failure with no survivor, and the other shot down by U-243 with one survivor rescued.

[Brian]

Hi Laurent

Please conact me by e-mail briancullauthor@fsmail.net

Cheers
Brian

[RT]

According to a source, the submarine rescued another meteorologist, Wd. Ass. Günter Rudolph of Wekusta 3. The U-243 arrived at Bergen on 12 June

Seems to be in a plane of the

Seetr,St, Hera Insel A JU52 7143

Rémi

[Jim P.]

So here's a question. This loss presents another possible WNr. conflict. I have a previous loss for WNr. 430678, but the WNr. was listed as 0678 in the Gen.Qu. losses so I likely made a wrong assumption for the first two digits, or that was the WNr. as reported in "The Blitz, Then & Now" - anyone have any other info on the first loss?

Ju 88T-1, 430678, Bäumer, Ltn. Hans J., , , 1., Versuchsverband Ob.d.L, , T9+FH, , , 20-Apr-43, POW due to Luftkampf with Spitfire from 322 Sq. (Eriksen). B & Bf KIA., WNr. 0678, 20-Feb (correction from 20-Apr) per loss. Essex in southern UK., Lfl.5/Atlantik, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #9)-Vol.16; The Blitz, Then & Now, III, p.247, , vor Clacton-on-Sea, Essex, 100%, F, B Ltn. Paul Hunold & Bf Ofw. Hermann Dietz, ,
Ju 88D-1/trop, 430678, n.n., , , 2.(F), 123, , , , , 22-Sep-43, Bruchlandung due to engine trouble., , Lw.Kdo.Südost/Mittelmeer, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #11)-Vol.21, , Fl.Pl. Tatoi, 10%, H, , ,
Ju 88D-1, 430678, Kubin, Ofw. Erich, , , , Wekusta 5, , D7+FN, , , 11-Jun-44, MIA with crew due to engine trouble., , , http://www.rafandluftwaffe.info/lists/luftwaffe2.htm, , 200km nordwestlich Trondheim (Pl.Qu.06 Ost / 86 33), 100%, F, Wd.Insp. Werner Platz, Bf Gefr. Hans Wallenfang & Bw Gefr. Werner Schnattler, ,

[edNorth]

Jim. First entry (I suspect) was A-5 / converted as "D-6" (088)0678 T9+FH of 4.(F)/Ob.d.L (my guess) but crew possibly of 1.(V)/Ob.d.L (?) - Then others ok.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Ed

Since all the other (F)/ObdL staffeln on 27 Jan 1943 had become 1-3./Aufkl Gr 100, it is very likely that 4.(F)/Ob d L also changed its title at around that time. Since we know it became 1./Versuchv.Ob d L, it is quite likely the loss is as per Jim's files, unless someone has a confirmed designation change date here.

Cheers
Stig

[edNorth]

Stig, I am not saying unit is wrong re 0678 loss (but likely is) - Merely trying explaining it is likely not relevant to D7+FH 430678 and full list for 4.(F)/Obd.L is for this unit existing in January and February 1943 - I too have the original GQM losses files on Microfiche from BArch (same source as Jim´s) and have this loss and other similar cases. No other loss is found for 4.(F)/Ob.d.L in Feb 43 (per my Ju 88 listings compiled from GQM documents), but an "D-6" is stated lost "in action" from 4.(F)/Ob.d.L in that month, February 1943 (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/aufkl/b4agobdl.html,) and this is the only match I find for 0678. Possibly the unit should have been amended too (the other three Staffeln "dissappearing" after 12.42), not only the date. Also I think it slightly too soon for D-1/trop 430678 to be the plane involved, arriving at 4.(F)/ in January 43, but an error in serial can not be ruled out. Carater of the GQM losses is it does not too often state precise sub-type where "specials" are involved.

But this is off-topic related to D7+FH shotdown, and the other MET officer the following day. Selinger/Schwerdtfeger "Wetterflieger im der Arktis" book, have both, on conseque days, but I have not studued this recently.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Well Ed,
I understand the situation as such with WNr 430678 vs (088)0678.

Irrelevant or not I am still curious regarding the date 4.(F)/Ob d L became 1./Versuchsv. Ob d L. The details re the curious Ju 88 have after all been listed by Jim P and unit corrected by you.

I don't have any first hand sources and am constantly trying to come to grips with the details you guys provide and the info already published.

From the sources I have it looks like the 4.(F) staffel did not exist when the Ju 88 was shot down on 20.4.43, and Holm also agree that is was re-designated 1./Versuchsv. Ob d L in Jan 1943

Cheers
Stig

[Jim P.]

Thanks for the clarification guys.

[Rainer]

In my opinion the loss of D7+FN is unrelated to the friendly fire incident of U-243 because this aircraft was lost somewhere between Jan Mayen and Trondheim while the U-boat shot down a Ju88 southwest of Bergen.

I've updated our page about the first and last patrol of U-243 and added more information about the downing of the Ju88: http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4350.html (http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_4350.html)

The incident took place in the naval grid AN2911 at 02.05 hours on 11 June. This position is about 40 nautical miles southwest of Bergen. Only a few details are known as the U-boat was lost later on this patrol and unfortunately the name of the rescued airman is not mentioned in the sources available to me, but it is stated that he was the radio operator of a Ju88.

So if the Ju88 involved in the incident wasn’t D7+FN of Wekusta 5, which aircraft could it be? As mentioned by Peter D. Evans the Wekusta 3 flew from Stavanger-Sola, but no losses are recorded from this unit for the day in question. Wekusta 3 was formed at Stavanger from “Wetterkette Südnorwegen” in September 1944 (or January 1944?) which had been a detachment of Wekusta 1/ObdL. Now the “Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen” for the latter unit (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/aufkl/bw1obdl.html (http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/aufkl/bw1obdl.html)) show the loss of a Ju88D-1 of “Wetterkette Südnorwegen” in June 1944. Does anyone know more details about the loss of this Ju88? Could this be the aircraft shot down by U-243?

[edNorth]

Clay Blair in "Hitlers U-Boat War" 1942 - 1945 (page 591, Modern Library, New York 2000) has U-243 "shot down Ju 88 by mistake on the night of June 9-10".

I have this as 430678 D7+FN (but need time re-finding where the tie-up was made, or some one else can clarify better?) possibly from SIG Norway lists or them compiled by Bjorn Hafstein ?????

Its been quite many years I had look at this. Possibly they shot at another plane (Ju 52/3m ?) because "crew" of 430678 is in my notes only hand amended to Anhang 2 in my "Wetterflieger" book copy. Strangely they are two reported 11.06.44 and one 10.06.44. I had not realized before there possibly were other planes involved.

BF Gefr. Wallenfang, Hans +11.6.44 (my notes addition to Anhang 2 list)
Wd. Insp. Platz +11.6.44 (orginal Wetterflieger list, Angang 2, p.227)
Ofw. Kubin, Erich + 10.6.44 (my notes addition to Anhang 2 list)

My Ju 88 loss listings has this such:

430678 Ju 88 D-1 [D7+FN] Wekústa 5 (Luftflotte 5) OPS (F) crashed in PLQ 06öst/8633 on routine weather recce flight : belived downed in error by German submarine U.243 off Norway 10.06.1944 (F Ofw. Erich Kubin mis, Wd.Insp. Werner Platz killed, BF Gefr. Hans Wallenfang and BW Gefr. Werner Schnattler mis) [Note: rep as 10.06.44 in LWFLV losses (who has found this?) but Schwerdtfeger / Selinger state date 11.06.44 for Wd.Insp. Platz missing]

Possibly wrong crew, plane or position? The plot thickens, I hope this has not confused the original question.

[edNorth]

Stig, point is 4.(F) existed in February 43 (per Holm site), date of loss was ameneded to February 43, as loss was not in April as first reported. The thing is 4.(F)/Ob.d.L was possibly twice transferred to 1.(V)/Ob.d.L. First in Jan 42, then again reformed in March 42 (training), then again to another gruppe in Jan 43, transferring all aircraft out (at end of February 43). Does that make sense or do I have another error here?

[Rainer]

The war diary of FdU Norwegen mentions the following air reconnaissance for 11 June 1944:
Fliegerführer 3: 1 Ju 88 on met and ice recce from Banak to Bear Island, South Cape and Hope Island, flown from 0504 to 1005 but nothing to report.
Fliegerführer 4: 1 Ju 88 on met recce west of Faeroes. Shot down by U-243 at 0205 in grid AN2911 after failing to answer recognition signals in time. One unwounded crew member rescued by U-boat.
Fliegerführer 5: 1 Ju 88 on met recce to Jan Mayen. Took off 0311 but overdue since 0941 in grid AF6177

This confirms that two Ju 88 on meteorological reconnaissance were lost on 11 June and that the Ju 88 D7+FN of Wekusta 5 was not the aircraft involved in the friendly fire incident. In all likelihood it was a Ju 88 from Wetterkette Südnorwegen (resp. Wekusta 3) based in Stavanger, but the identity of the aircraft and crew remains a mystery.