Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?

[Robert Forsyth]

Mike,

Very interesting. I met Franz Stigler on a number of occasions (also on one occasion he insisted I conduct a telephone interview at 3 am in the morning). However, I will always remember, in what is perhaps a delicious touch of irony, he once told me he was planning to write a book. With a big grin on his face he said, 'I'm going to call it "Fighter Pilots of the World.... and other Famous Liars'." (!!!!)

(His words - not mine!).

Robert Forsyth

[DunkBM]

Good responses thanks. I agree about all the negative press the German's often get. Most of the books I have read suggest they are generally at least as sporting as any other pilots. It appears that most of the Luftwaffe weren't really interested in politics either, they just wanted an excuse to fly like many of their allied counterparts.

[Nick Beale]

The most representative fighter pilot in most air forces would be the one who never shot anything down.

When it comes to interesting, mightn't it sometimes be what someone had seen, rather than what he'd done that made him interesting?

[ChrisS]

My understanding was that the British regarded the Luftwaffe as very indoctrinated and as such treated them with greater security then Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine prisoners. I recently met a chap of 84, amazingly still serving as Chaplain to the Sea Cadets who during the war served as a prison camp guard. He told me the unofficial POW camp 'pecking order' went Waffen SS, Paratroopers, Luftwaffe, U-Boatcrews, Wehrmacht and lastly the softest Kriegsmarine.

[harrison987]

Originally Posted by DunkBM

Good responses thanks. I agree about all the negative press the German's often get. Most of the books I have read suggest they are generally at least as sporting as any other pilots. It appears that most of the Luftwaffe weren't really interested in politics either, they just wanted an excuse to fly like many of their allied counterparts.

Exactly!

[ChrisS]

Sorry chaps I just don't buy this 'they were just decent blokes like our boys' stuff.

Most Germans under the age of 20 in 1939 had over 6 years of service in Nazi political youth movements of some sort especially those who had glider training. Nazism wound it's evil coils around the the very fabric of German life, books, education, radio, voluntary organisations etc etc there was no way anybody escape it's all-pervasive influence. Most of the Luftwaffe was heavily indoctrinated from the top downwards this only began to crack as the true nature of Nazism began to become evident, and only then when defeat and the falibility of Hitler was plain for all to see.

What an individual serving in the Luftwaffe may have privately believed and thought in 1944-5 bore little relationship to the politically charged war-machine of the victorious Luftwaffe of 1939-40. Stripped of Nazism then any human being can call themselves decent and honorable, but first we had to strip them of it!! Let's never forget here on this forum, that the Luftwaffe and its men were the tool of a cruel evil regime intent on the subdugation of the civilised world who thought nothing of the murder of millions of individuals and the enslavement of whole nations. The fact that a number of Luftwaffe units and individuals behaved with humanity and respect does not redeem the monsterous barbarity of the organisation as a whole.

Sorry about the rant but .........

I still favour Lutzow, I gather he turned away from Nazism, as did Molders I believe, sad they both died for its cause....

[Brian Bines]

Seenot. pilot Hpt.Karl Born, who flew through the war and who briefly carried out mercy missions under RAF escort after the German surrender.

[Jim P.]

I suppose upon reflection Bar is not particularly 'representative' because he was a very successful pilot wherever he happened to be flying. Given that then someone like Klaus Faber might fit the bill - only had a few claims, flew from 39-45 and survived. On the other hand, the fact that he survived is not really representative either. The vast majority of LW pilots, for one reason or another, had very short careers. But in this the LW is not necessarily unique - its probably safe to say most of the losses for all combatants were of relatively inexperiened pilots, the survivors were generally the exception and became the aces. Another item that is probably worth mentioning is that in reviewing the LW losses, its always struck me as extraordinary how many of the 'experten' were lost due to accidents versus combat. What does the DunkBM consider representative?

[John Vasco]

Chris,
I understand all what you say, and respect your right to say it, but doesn't this sound a bit like the troops of our glorious British Empire...?

Originally Posted by ChrisS

the tool of a cruel evil regime intent on the subdugation of the [un]civilised world who thought nothing of the murder of millions of individuals and the enslavement of whole nations.

Oh yeah, you can throw in the slave trade to America for good measure also. I don't believe we (British) can claim any moral high ground given our past.

What you actually talk about in your post is indoctrination on a scale never before seen, particularly of children in their formative years. And don't forget that from the poverty and no hope of the 1920s, a regime came along which, on the surface, appeared to offer a better life. We now know that that was a smokescreen for other things planned, but did the ordinary Joe in the street have any idea of the Nazi party's master plan? I would suggest probably not. And once the regime was in power, ordinary people had no chance of dislodging it. Think about it, it took the combined power of the USA, the Soviet Empire and the British Empire to bring it down.

One might find a recent parallel in the British Government's insistence that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, therefore a legitimate reason to invade that country. 100% lies (and Bush and Blair knew it), and the result was that there are now many families of soldiers mourning here and in the US as a result of the lies perpetrated by Bush and Blair, and countless thousands of Iraqis dead also. Bush & Blair were the biggest threats to world stability in recent times, simply because of the quest for oil, not any higher ideal. If they had higher ideals they would have gone after Mugabe...

One can only speak as one finds, and having met quite a few former Luftwaffe personnel, I found most of them to be ordinary, decent, people (there was the odd prick).

As you say, Chris, sorry about the rant...

[Ruy Horta]

I'll throw some oil on the fire.

First I find the original question pointless without a proper context.

Indeed just looking at Jagdflieger is part of the Luftwaffe's problem, certainly in its offensive phase it was the (dive) bomber who carried the offensive, or the reconnaissance or transport pilot who went unnoticed.

Second

Our "boys vs their boys" and the Nazi movement.

With hind sight or some "popular" contamination with Communists and Al Quaida (etc, "the tag"), it is easy to see a Nazi as something different to us decent people. He is part of that monstrous machine that burned books, gassed millions of Jews and slaughtered more millions in its war of aggression.

By using the word Nazi, we de-humanize or demonise the enemy, who apart from his possible political believes was a GERMAN. But saying/writing that you killed a German soldier, airman or civilian doesn't sounds as great as saying/writing that you killed a Nazi.

Why should a pilot with a Nazi upbringing be less of a human? One might say that one who believed and fought for the Nuremberg racial laws was evil, yet can you honestly claim that those fine southern boys in the US AAF didn't (at least in part) believe in their segregation laws? Yes, there is a BIG difference between the two in practice, but is there in theory?

Moelders the Gentleman of the Jagdwaffe, often praised for his unpolitical and religious stance, was if we read Kurt Braatz, a staunch believer in Hitler as the Fuehrer and savior of Germany. Does that mean that we must brand Moelders a Nazi fanatic?

Having finished the Moelders biography I had the chance of purchasing a relatively cheap copy of Theo Osterkamp's Durch Hohen und Tiefen jagt ein Herz, another example of a Gentleman in the Luftwaffe, yet he simply admits that he believed in Hitler as the answer for Germany. Again, does that make him a Nazi fanatic?

Were those young men (boys) from the 12th SS Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend" who to all accounts fought a tough battle in Normandy which earned the respect of most of those who engaged them, simply Nazi fanatics and therefor lesser men?

Third

What Stigler did was perhaps a grand gesture, it was also stupid. I wonder if he ever thought about the consequences of letting an experienced bomber crew have another go at bombing?! Being a gentleman in war doesn't always mean that you are doing the right thing.

If Stigler wanted be a gentleman, he would have been better off if he selected a fellow fighter pilot from the other side of the hill to escort home.

Not judging the man, for I have not earned the right to do so, just the deed.

Last, in answer to the original query.

Want to hear my most representative Luftwaffe pilot: unnamed.