Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?

[DunkBM]

Good responses thanks. I agree about all the negative press the German's often get. Most of the books I have read suggest they are generally at least as sporting as any other pilots. It appears that most of the Luftwaffe weren't really interested in politics either, they just wanted an excuse to fly like many of their allied counterparts.

[Nick Beale]

The most representative fighter pilot in most air forces would be the one who never shot anything down.

When it comes to interesting, mightn't it sometimes be what someone had seen, rather than what he'd done that made him interesting?

[ChrisS]

My understanding was that the British regarded the Luftwaffe as very indoctrinated and as such treated them with greater security then Wehrmacht and Kriegsmarine prisoners. I recently met a chap of 84, amazingly still serving as Chaplain to the Sea Cadets who during the war served as a prison camp guard. He told me the unofficial POW camp 'pecking order' went Waffen SS, Paratroopers, Luftwaffe, U-Boatcrews, Wehrmacht and lastly the softest Kriegsmarine.

[harrison987]

Originally Posted by DunkBM

Good responses thanks. I agree about all the negative press the German's often get. Most of the books I have read suggest they are generally at least as sporting as any other pilots. It appears that most of the Luftwaffe weren't really interested in politics either, they just wanted an excuse to fly like many of their allied counterparts.

Exactly!

[ChrisS]

Sorry chaps I just don't buy this 'they were just decent blokes like our boys' stuff.

Most Germans under the age of 20 in 1939 had over 6 years of service in Nazi political youth movements of some sort especially those who had glider training. Nazism wound it's evil coils around the the very fabric of German life, books, education, radio, voluntary organisations etc etc there was no way anybody escape it's all-pervasive influence. Most of the Luftwaffe was heavily indoctrinated from the top downwards this only began to crack as the true nature of Nazism began to become evident, and only then when defeat and the falibility of Hitler was plain for all to see.

What an individual serving in the Luftwaffe may have privately believed and thought in 1944-5 bore little relationship to the politically charged war-machine of the victorious Luftwaffe of 1939-40. Stripped of Nazism then any human being can call themselves decent and honorable, but first we had to strip them of it!! Let's never forget here on this forum, that the Luftwaffe and its men were the tool of a cruel evil regime intent on the subdugation of the civilised world who thought nothing of the murder of millions of individuals and the enslavement of whole nations. The fact that a number of Luftwaffe units and individuals behaved with humanity and respect does not redeem the monsterous barbarity of the organisation as a whole.

Sorry about the rant but .........

I still favour Lutzow, I gather he turned away from Nazism, as did Molders I believe, sad they both died for its cause....

[Brian Bines]

Seenot. pilot Hpt.Karl Born, who flew through the war and who briefly carried out mercy missions under RAF escort after the German surrender.

[John Vasco]

Chris,
I understand all what you say, and respect your right to say it, but doesn't this sound a bit like the troops of our glorious British Empire...?

Originally Posted by ChrisS

the tool of a cruel evil regime intent on the subdugation of the [un]civilised world who thought nothing of the murder of millions of individuals and the enslavement of whole nations.

Oh yeah, you can throw in the slave trade to America for good measure also. I don't believe we (British) can claim any moral high ground given our past.

What you actually talk about in your post is indoctrination on a scale never before seen, particularly of children in their formative years. And don't forget that from the poverty and no hope of the 1920s, a regime came along which, on the surface, appeared to offer a better life. We now know that that was a smokescreen for other things planned, but did the ordinary Joe in the street have any idea of the Nazi party's master plan? I would suggest probably not. And once the regime was in power, ordinary people had no chance of dislodging it. Think about it, it took the combined power of the USA, the Soviet Empire and the British Empire to bring it down.

One might find a recent parallel in the British Government's insistence that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, therefore a legitimate reason to invade that country. 100% lies (and Bush and Blair knew it), and the result was that there are now many families of soldiers mourning here and in the US as a result of the lies perpetrated by Bush and Blair, and countless thousands of Iraqis dead also. Bush & Blair were the biggest threats to world stability in recent times, simply because of the quest for oil, not any higher ideal. If they had higher ideals they would have gone after Mugabe...

One can only speak as one finds, and having met quite a few former Luftwaffe personnel, I found most of them to be ordinary, decent, people (there was the odd prick).

As you say, Chris, sorry about the rant...

[yogybär]

To the topic:
If I should look out for a pilot, I would opt for a successfull guy, who really did a great job. A kind of exemplary for other pilots, like a "represantative" should be. Who would send the most normal of his personal to a "representation" ?.

My choice:

Gerhard Barkhorn

- he flew like a work animal with his >1.100 missions
- he was very successfull
- he never had the strange masses of kills other super-aces filed
- and apparently was "clean" enough to get into the Bundesluftwaffe

To another topic:

Originally Posted by ChrisS

Sorry chaps I just don't buy this 'they were just decent blokes like our boys' stuff.

Most Germans under the age of 20 in 1939 had over 6 years of service in Nazi political youth movements of some sort especially those who had glider training. Nazism wound it's evil coils around the the very fabric of German life, books, education, radio, voluntary organisations etc etc there was no way anybody escape it's all-pervasive influence. Most of the Luftwaffe was heavily indoctrinated from the top downwards this only began to crack as the true nature of Nazism began to become evident, and only then when defeat and the falibility of Hitler was plain for all to see.

I support this. I am german, and believe me, I thought a lot about "how these ancestors of mine were". The main question inside this for me is:

- Where they all racists and militarists?

My answer is: Maybe not all, but most of them were racist. They were nationalists (like many people today are), but not militarists.

I just spent a week together with a relative who was born in 1913. It is fascinating to hear her talk about her grandparents (who were born ca. 1860!) and about former times she lived through.

But it is really strange, when she starts talking about "Jews, the annihilation of our culture and other races". She has a "Weltanschauung" (picture of the world) which still reflects the racism and a fight between different groups, at least that "somebody" wants to destroy Germany.

On the other hand: These generations had to change their way of life (and partly, thinking) so strong... there was a lot of "Antisemitismus" also in other european countries, and they did partly support the german holocoust-system. And as the grew up in such a totalitary and media-controlling state, I cannot point my finger to these people born in the 1920ies.

PS: For sure we are definitely also indoctrinated, see stuff like:
- "bio-weapons" in Iraq as THE argument to attack
- the "axis of evil", Al-Quaida etc.
- the "good USA", who protect the world from XYZ
- "Democracy"
- maybe even "CO2 will kill our climate"?
Let's see what lies in front of us all...