Seeking ID of Ju87B Crashed near Maastricht during WC of 1940

[Larry Hickey]

ClinA-78 & Pieter,

The posted photo is T6+LR, WNr.442, of 7./StG2. The 7./StG2 insignia in clearly evident on the nose, and is visible even in the poor quality photocopy posted above. The best prospect for this one in our EOE DB: "May 12, 1940: 7./StG2 Junkers Ju87B. Believed forced-landed east of St Truiden damaged by No. 3 Squadron Hurricanes during sortie to attack armour near Gembloux 8.30 a.m. Possibly one of those attacked by F/O Bowyer. One of crew wounded. Aircraft a write-off.”

I've corresponded with both Philippe Dufresne and Peter Taghon about this one, with the specific location suggested as the "Les Fourons" area of Belgium. Peter Taghon says "That it should have been shot down by the fire of the Aubin-Neufchateau fort is a fairy tale, these guns simply could not fire in the air!”

An email from Philippe Dufresne said: "Les Fourons " was written on the back of the original picture. I have for information but without evidences that a Ju-87 from 7/St.G.2 was lost on the 12th of May near the village of Looz/Borgloon, just a few miles East of St-Trond, (there are a lot of orchards in this area) but no serial. No Pictures and no markings (so far) so it could be the one in the picture and the place named on the back info is false or another one but if you said there are only one airplane of this unit loss that day ...I will investigate. The only other element is the name of LOOC give in some sources. That name don't exist in Belgium. The closest is LOOZ or LOON who are in the same village of Borgloon.”

So, I would really appreciate any help in pinning down the precise location, date and pilot of this one. Is it the Gembloux loss, or a different one, perhaps one not even recorded in the Luft QM losses reports. I have seven different images of this one in the EOE DB, including a good quality image of the one in the photocopy.

There is another 7./StG2 Ju87B down next to an orchard sometime about this time, T6+FR, WNr.422. This one has the 7 Staffel insignia on the port fuselage, and the III./StG2 insignia on the starboard side in the same position. This is what sparked the question above about the insignias on Oblt. Lau's 8./StG2 aircraft, which remains unresolved. I'm suspecting that by the spring of 1940, III./StG2 used the Gruppe insignia on the starboard nose, and the Staffel insignia on the port side. This is important because we are organizing the art packages for the 1000+ Luftwaffe color aircraft profiles for the EOE book series, and we want these to be definitive and accurate. Any help on these aircraft would be appreciated.

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Hello all,

Related to the post above about profiles for III./StG2 aircraft, I'm looking for photos, preferably with known pilot/gunner, for a Stab III./StG2 and a 9./StG2 profile for the two Western Campaign (WC -- May/June, 1940) volumes in the EOE book series. I have an excellent candidate for a Polish Campaign Stab III./StG2 aircraft (Do17P-1, T6+CD, WNr.4123), but no really good Stab III or 9 Staffel Ju87B aircraft photos representing either the Polish Campaign or the Phoney War period. There are a couple of photos in the French ECPA-D Luft Collection of 9 Staffel a/c for the PC, but nothing for an entire a/c. Same for Volume I (July-Aug, 1940) of the Battle of Britain. I'm hoping someone will come forward with good prospects to help us fill these gaps. We have the unit diary (KTB) for III./StG2 for the PC, so if someone has photos of a relatively intact crash, or a crew with their aircraft, or even just an a/c with plane code and W.Nr. visible, we may be able to relate these photos to the KTB info. From memory, I don't believe a KTB exists for III./StG2 for periods in 1939-1940 after the PC.

Can anybody help?

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Further to the search for photos of perhaps a crashed Ju87B from 9./StG2 during May, 1940, that might be the subject of a profile, we have in the EOE DB this incident from May 15, 1940, for which I'm seeking photos: "9./StG2 Junkers Ju87B-1. Shot down by Hurricanes during attack on armour near Gentinnes and crashed in wood off Rue du Sart, south of Ernage, 2 km north-west of Gembloux, 2.05 p.m. FF Uffz Fritz Urban and BF Obergefr Arno Brandt both killed. Aircraft 100% write-off. " This a/c could have been smashed to pieces, but sometimes enough info can be obtained from photos of the wreckage if any exist, that we could create a reliable profile.

Can anybody help?

[Pieter H]

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the info.
I'm still a bit lost.

Let's assume the picture by Clin is the T6+LR of 7./StG2, shot down on May 12 near St Trond.
However:
- the fact that it is in an orchard does not prove it is near St Trond (which is indeed the fruit region of Belgium). Also in the Maastricht area extending into the Voerstreek/Fourons in Belgium there are/were lots of orchards.
- so why say the loss is near St Trond if the backside of the picture says "Fourons"?
- but even if that is true, there was a crash in Schophem/St Martens Voeren of a (StG2) Stuka. If you go to the local Fourons-history website they clearly state it was May 10.
- In sources - that are often not aircraft experts - there is mentioning of the letter L and nr 442. They mention there are nine pictures of the crash!
- I think nobody (at least not me) suggested that the a/c was shot down by the big canons of the Aubin fortress. It was of course the anti-aircraft (machine) guns of the fort. I don't see why that was not possible, although I do expect the a/c was already hit in an earlier attack and flying low enough to be fired at by the fort AA guns. Alternatively, this fortress resisted for 11 days and was continuously bombed by Stukas. One could be hit during one of these attacks.
- From what I can see on the - very bad - picture is according Ketley and Rolfe the III. Gruppe emblem (in fact they don't list any 7. Staffel emblem).
- According the local historian Pütz it was a 9. Staffel a/c

All this makes that I still think this picture is the May 10 crash at Schophem St Martens Voeren, most likely a 9. machine.

Pieter

[Larry Hickey]

Pieter,

I've researched this insignia extensively, and have many examples of it on aircraft with full codes. It IS the 7./StG2 insignia, which has not been previously published correctly, and it is different from the III./StG2 inignia. All examples I have showing full codes (several), confirm the Staffel code T6+_R. Mr. Pütz is incorrect. I have seven photos of the specific a/c T6+LR in the EOE DB, so there are apparently quite a few of them around. This will have to be turned over now to Peter Cornwell who, as you know is our EOE expert on Luftwaffe losses, to see if he can assign this one to a specific incident in our DB. Thanks for your help. This still leaves several questions that I'm trying to answer from this thread.

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Pieter,

I went back and reviewed my correspondence with Philippe Dufrasne about T6+LR and he says: "This Ju-87 crashed exactly at Fouron-le-comte / Fouron-saint-Martin ‘Ottegraeven’ 300M from Farm Dodemont . It was shot down by fire from the fort ‘Aubin-Neufchateau. The place is 20KM NE of Liège and 20KM WSW of Aachen, 13KM SE of Maastricht.” So we have a 7./StG2 force-landing at that location, but Philippe wasn't able to pinpoint a date, which you indicate should be May 10th. The problem, of course, is that 9./StG2 had four Ju87Bs shot down in the Maastricht area that day, but No losses were recorded to 7 Staffel that day.

Our updated EOE Luftwaffe loss list for May 10 records:

9./StG2 Junkers Ju87B-1. Lost during collision on sortie over Vroenhoven and crashed at Maastricht-Hazendans (the Netherlands). FF Fw Werner Herden and BF Gefr Helmuth Fischer both killed. Aircraft 100% write-off. (Note: one photo via Peter Taghon in the EOE photo DB).

9./StG2 Junkers Ju87B-1. Lost during collision on sortie over Vroenhoven and crashed near the Maaseik bridge, near Roosteren (the Netherlands), 2km north-west of Maastricht. BF Uffz Erich Unger killed, FF Lt Wilhelm Kaiser baled out injured – later returned. Aircraft 100% write-off.

9./StG2 Junkers Ju87B-1. Crashed in Mechelsesteenweg at Kapelle-op-den-Bos (Belgium) following possible collision due to AA-fire from ship ‘ City of London’ during attack on bridge at Kapelle-op-den-Bos 7.15 p.m. FF Fw Alfred Nitschke and BF Uffz Ernst Bröckner both killed. Aircraft 100% write-off. (Note: two photos via Peter Taghon in the EOE photo DB).

9./StG2 Junkers Ju87B-1. Crashed in Veldstraat at Kapelle-op-den-Bos following collision due to AA-fire from ship ‘ City of London’ during attack on bridge at Kapelle-op-den-Bos (Belgium) 7.15 p.m. FF Uffz Udo Gilon killed, BF Obergefr Heinrich Cechini baled out and captured unhurt. Aircraft T6+ET 100% write-off.

We have photos of the crashes/graves relating to the first and third of these crashes, but nothing can be seen of markings in the smashed wreckage. We are still seeking photos of the other two crashes from 9 Staffel that day. Since all four of these crews were either killed or baled out, there is no possibility that either of these intact 7 Staffel force landings could be confused with these 9 Staffel losses.

The loss of the 7 Staffel aircraft on May 12th, quoted in an earlier post in this thread, is the first one reported by 7 Staffel that could relate to photos of either of these 7 Staffel a/c: T6+LR and T6+FR. Peter C. assigns T6+LR to the "Gembloux" area crash on May 12th. So where does all this leave us?

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Hello all,

Peter Cornwell has now adjusted our EOE data base entry for Ju87B W.Nr. 442, T6+LR as follows:

"May 11, 1940: 7./StG2 Junkers Ju87B (442). Damaged by No.607 Squadron Hurricanes during attack on roads east of Tirlemont and belly-landed careering into a lane at 'Les Fourons', near Farm Dodemont, off the Ottegraeven, west of Sint-Martens-Voeren, 4.35 p.m. BF Uffz Franz Kulik killed, pilot unhurt. Aircraft T6+LR 100% write-off." (Photos) (Note: revised per 6/22/11 PC email.)

This appears to settle the "Les Fourons" forced-landing. Remaining to be settled is the location and specifics of the force landing of 7./StG2 Ju87B of T6+FR, WNr. 422. This aircraft came down intact in what also appears to be near an orchard area. Photos confirm that this a/c carried the 7 Staffel insignia on the port fuselage and the III. Gr insignia on the starboard side.

Also unresolved is the specific location in an orchard near Maastricht where Oblt. Lothar Lau set down his T6+AS on May 11th, and locating photos showing the rear and tail of the aircraft to enable us to do an accurate profile of the a/c.

Any help on these two issues would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

[Pieter H]

Larry,

We're almost there.
On the 9./StG2 crash at Roosteren: Maaseik and Roosteren are roughly 30km north of Maastricht, more than halfway to Roermond. Not 2km.

On the 7./StG2 at St Martens-Voeren:
Another language mix-up. "Les Fourons" is the French name for the area just south of the dutch border between Liege and the German-Belgian border. "De Voerstreek" is the Dutch name. So the French names of the villages are Fourens-les-xxx, the Dutch names are xxx-Voeren. This is a highly disputed area with respect to the language battles in Belgium, so whatever language you pick will make you no friends. But mixing them is inconsistent. Since I think the area is formally Flanders you would use the Dutch names. So:
May 11, 1940: 7./StG2 Junkers Ju87B (442). Damaged by No.607 Squadron Hurricanes during attack on roads east of Tirlemont and belly-landed careering into a lane at Schophem, near Farm Dodemont, off the Ottegraeven, west of Sint-Martens-Voeren, 4.35 p.m. BF Uffz Franz Kulik killed, pilot unhurt. Aircraft T6+LR 100% write-off.

Finally on the May 12 7./StG2 a/c:
Location mentioned is Ordingen, 1km east of St Truiden.

Could you show the 7./StG2 emblem you refer to?

Regards, Pieter

[Larry Hickey]

Pieter,

As requested, I've sent you two photos by direct email of T6+FR showing the 7 Staffel insignia.

Also, we've further updated our EOE DB on T6+LR based upon your comments:

"May 11, 1940: 11 May 1940: 7./StG2 Junkers Ju87B (442). Damaged by No.607 Squadron Hurricanes during attack on roads east of Tirlemont and belly-landed careering into a lane near Farm Dodemont at Schophem, off the Ottegraeven, west of Sint-Martens-Voeren, 4.35 p.m. BF Uffz Franz Kulik killed, pilot unhurt. Aircraft T6+LR 100% write-off. (Photos)"

Peter Cornwell has also adjusted the entry for one of the 10 May 9 Staffel losses listed above:

"10 May 1940: 9./StG2 Junkers Ju87B-1. Collided with Fw Herden during sortie over Vroenhoven and crashed near the Maaseik bridge, near Roosteren, north-west of Maastricht. BF Uffz Erich Unger killed, FF Lt Wilhelm Kaiser baled out injured – later returned. Aircraft 100% write-off."

Thanks for your help and all of you who have contributed so far to this thread. I hope that we can further resolve the questions listed in my previous post.

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Pieter,

As requested, I've sent you two photos by direct email of T6+FR showing the 7 Staffel insignia.

Also, we've further updated our EOE DB on T6+LR based upon your comments:

"May 11, 1940: 11 May 1940: 7./StG2 Junkers Ju87B (442). Damaged by No.607 Squadron Hurricanes during attack on roads east of Tirlemont and belly-landed careering into a lane near Farm Dodemont at Schophem, off the Ottegraeven, west of Sint-Martens-Voeren, 4.35 p.m. BF Uffz Franz Kulik killed, pilot unhurt. Aircraft T6+LR 100% write-off. (Photos)"

Peter Cornwell has also adjusted the entry for one of the 10 May 9 Staffel losses listed above:

"10 May 1940: 9./StG2 Junkers Ju87B-1. Collided with Fw Herden during sortie over Vroenhoven and crashed near the Maaseik bridge, near Roosteren, north-west of Maastricht. BF Uffz Erich Unger killed, FF Lt Wilhelm Kaiser baled out injured – later returned. Aircraft 100% write-off."

Thanks for your help and all of you who have contributed so far to this thread. I hope that we can further resolve the questions listed in my previous post.

Regards,