ID of Do17P with Z5 Unit Code

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello Larry,

These links might be of interest:

http://www.ww2.dk/ground/hq/iflak.htm

http://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/aufkl2flak.html

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/p/16949

http://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/aufkl1flak.html

And:
In Dutch:
Division Aufklärungsstaffel
De divisie had een eigen bescheiden vliegende verkenningseenheid, bestaande uit kleine en grote verkenningstoestellen, die niet alleen luchtverkenning maar eveneens verbindingen moesten verzorgen. Uit Luftwaffe bronnen is enige duidelijkheid te verkrijgen over de globale samenstelling van de eenheid, die volgens verwijzingen in diverse bronnen gedurende de gevechtsdagen (vrijwel) geheel moet zijn uitgeschakeld.
De eenheid was in feite de Aufklärungsstaffel (Fernaufklärung) des II.Flakkorps, oorspronkelijk gestationeerd te Köln-Ostheim. Het was op 10 mei echter volledig gedetacheerd bij het Luftlandekorps en als zodanig in menige bron aangeduid als het Aufklärungsstaffel 7.FD, wat onjuist is, maar wel direct de link met Kurt Student zijn divisie legt. Commandant van het Staffel was Oberleutnant G. Langguth.
De eenheid bestond uit een Korpsführungskette met 6 Do-17M verkenners. Daarnaast was er de verkenningseenheid met 4 Do-17M en de verkennings/verbindingseenheid met 4 Hs-126B toestellen [67: pg 131]. Zo goed als zeker is dat tenminste een deel van de eenheid vanaf 10 mei vanaf Waalhaven begon te opereren. Foto's van een geparkeerde (beschadigde) Hs-126B op Waalhaven zijn overigens ook bekend.
Aan de divisie luchtmacht verbanden - los van de beide grote transportgroepen KGzbV1 en 2 - was nog een onbekend transportverband toegevoegd. Wellicht werd dat onder meer gevormd door de twee Ju-52 voor de verbindingsdienst. Er is geen enkele duidelijkheid te verkrijgen over dit onderdeel behalve dat het door Oberleutnant F. Schäfer werd gecommandeerd.
(source: http://www.zuidfront-holland1940.nl/...fliederung-7fd)



Best regards,
Rob

[Larry Hickey]

Rob,

Thanks for your additional research. I'll be in touch directly about a translation of what appears to be an excellent Dutch entry. This might even be somehow related to the Do17 and Hs126 destroyed/damaged on Waalhaven AF during the beginning of the Meidagen, which is the subject of a separate post.

Thanks to lots of direct messages from EOE Project supporters, I've now located a photo of a second (different) Do17M? probably also FL during the Western Campaign, which is probably the second one mentioned by Peter C. in his email to me quoted earlier in this thread.

I've also located two photos of a Do17M-1 of this same unit with Z5 codes in the ECPA Collection from 1939-40, which we now have in the EOE DB (some 2200 images). These are ECPA images DAA 609 L14 and L15. These two show a crew about to depart on a mission saluting probably their StaKap. The aircraft appears to be Z5+BH or DH, with the B or D in a medium color (not white). Interestingly, these two film frames are on the same film roll as the well-known "Cafe Archibald" sequence of 3./JG2, from about April, 1940.

Despite the ample evidence for Do17M-1s and a Fi156 carrying this Z5 code during the spring of 1940, and at least two of the former being forced down in probably France, there is still no confirmed connection between this code and Aufklärungsstaffel I Flakkorps. The evidence mounts, but it is still only circumstantial. Who can provide this direct connection based on hard documentation?

Regards,

[robert]

Hi,

elements of I./JG2 were stationed at Frankfurt-Rebstock in early 1940. On the door of "Cafe Archibald" is inscription "Feldberg 1940" - a hill called Grosser Feldberg is a few kilometers NW of Frankfurt and Langendiebach is some 7-8 km E of Frankfurt. Same area and no problem to reach these locations on the very same day.

Regards

Robert

[Larry Hickey]

Robert,

So another bit of circumstantial evidence that the "Z5" code could be connected to Aufklärungsstaffel I Flakkorps, which was based at Langendiebach during the correct period. Makes the case a little stronger.

Regards,

[Don Pearson]

Perhaps a long-shot, but do any carry this emblem:

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20100602100105

Don

[Larry Hickey]

Don,

None of these aircraft show any insignia in the available photos.

Regards,

[Peter D Evans]

Just so your aware chaps, Goran/F19Gladiator has posted another former eBay shot over on the LEMB that shows another Do17, this time with what appears to be coded Z5+D? Click here to see this image...

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

[Peter D Evans]

Another update chaps... unearthed again by Goran/F19Gladiator from his archive of old eBay auction images, two Fi156's, one coded Z5+FH and another coded Z5+GH. Both can be viewed via the same link in my previous post

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

[Larry Hickey]

Hello Peter,

Thanks Peter for also making this thread available on the LEMB Board, and to Goran for posting the photo of Z5+D? (probably Z5+DH, despite the color of the D). There are a lot of private exchanges going on between members of the EOE WG (Working Group) on this issue, and I want to keep the members of both TOCH and LEMB apprized of where this is going.

Rob van den Nieuwendijk made an excellent post on the TOCH thread from a Dutch website (in Dutch) on 09.07.11, and, on the theory that no good deed go unpunished, I asked him to do a full, nuanced translation of this, since it appears to have application to both my TOCH post on the identity of the "Z5" code and the question about the identity of the shot up Do17M or P, and a AufklSt 7 Fl Div Hs126 (4Q code), both badly damaged on or about 10.05.40 on the airfield at Waalhaven, Netherlands. Neither of these clearly written off planes apparently appear in the German QM loss records or the NVM system.

Here is Rob's translation, sent directly to my private email account:

"As promised the translation - made by myself not using google etc. in order to find all the nuances for you.

Division Aufklärungstaffel. The division had his own small flying reconn unit, which were small and larger reconn aircraft, which not only took care of the reconn, but also had to take care of the signals. From Luftwaffe sources we have been able to get some more background about the composition of this unit, which - according to several sources - was put out of action during the battle days. The unit was actually the Aufklärungsstaffel (Fernaufklärung) of II. Flakkorps, which was stationed initially at Köln-Ostheim. But on 10 May it was completely subordinated to the Luftlandekorps and therefore - in many sources - indicated (named) as Aufklärungsstaffel 7. FD, which is not correct, but makes the direct link with division of Kurt Student. Commander of the Staffel was Oberleutnant G. Langguth. The unit consisted of a Korpsführungskette with 6 Do-17M reconn. Furhermore there was a reconn unit with 4 Do-17M and a reconn/signals unit with 4 Hs-126B aircraft. It is for sure that at least a part of the unit operated from Waalhaven as from 10 May. Pictures of a parked Hs -126 at Waalhaven are also known. To the division force - apart from the both large transportgroups KGzbV 1 and 2 - was also an unknown transport aircraft attached. Probably these were two Ju52's for signals. No futher details are known, despite that this unit was lead by Oberleutnant F. Schäfer.

My advice is to find more info on Oberleutnant G Langguth - perhaps Doug (Stankey)/Larry (de Zeng) might know more."

The Do17M or P at Waalhaven does not have a 4Q code, but apparently a code of ?4+EA, possibly B4 or P4+EA.

Commenting on a photo of the partial codes of this a/c, Peter C. has commented: "I make out B4+EA with a very distinctive style of ‘open’ 4." Robert further commented, after seeing Rob's translation: "it could be possible that (the Do17 at Waalhaven) was from Korpsfuehrungskette of Luftflandekorps."

So that is where things stand now. We really want to get these two photo-confirmed Luftwaffe losses added to our massive, narrative, EOE Luftwaffe loss/damage/casualty DB for 1939-1940. However, we need more details on dates of incidents shown in the photos (on or about May 10, 1940), units (for the Do17), and circumstances of these two loss/damage incidents. Robert has suggested to me that the Hs126, which carries the insignia and codes for the recon staffel for 7 Fl.Div. may have had it's back broken (the principal damage observed in the photos) by artillery fire after it landed at Waalhaven. The Do17 has about 50 machine gun bullet holes in it, which could have been inflicted in the air by a fighter (forcing it down), or after it landed with the left main gear collapsed, by a Dutch machine gun position--or a combination of both.

We're making serious headway on the subjects of both of my posts, and I hope that we can make the final link between the Z5 code and it's unit, as well as the full codes, identity and details of the Do17 crack up at Waalhaven. The latter is probably going to require a clear photo of the a/c codes, which I'm convinced is out there somewhere due to the extensive photography taken at Waalhaven after its capture by the Germans. For those not familiar with the geography, Waalhaven was the airfield at Rotterdam.

Regards,

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

20 May 1940: Aufklärungsstaffel I Flakkorps Dornier Do17M-1. Lost during reconnaissance sortie, details not recorded. BO Lt
[ ] Engel and one other crewman believed captured wounded, another unhurt – all later released. Aircraft 100% write-off.

Hello Larry,

your a/c was the Do17M-1, Z5 + BH, from Aufklärungsstaffel des Gen.Kdo. 1 Flakkorps. It was shot down in the morning of 20 May 1940 near Reims from French AA guns. The pilot was Ufzz. Edgar Berthold (likely injured because it were 1 1/2 months to his next flight). Take off was in Ochamps (Belgium) at 9.30 am.

Best regards
Rasmussen