RAF Mustang Escorts

[Franek Grabowski]

Stephen
At hand I have only my notes but I can get respective pages of the ORB.
I would appreciate if you can get any accounts of 404 Sqn boys recorded somehow. I had a lot of problems locating any Canadians for my project.

Kjetil
What is unreasonable here?
I see no evidence that 315 performed badly on this mission. I see the mission did not went entirely according to plan, but perhaps those were planners responsible, who send only one Squadron to escort such a big formation?
The fact that some people have not seen them is no proof of anything. Standard procedure was to climb into the sun to avoid surprising attack and orbit. It is obvious this tactics could not work with so many Lancasters flying on their own and the escort was not adequate. Comparison to other attacks is not fair either. Any daylight attack involved several Squadrons flying diversions, sweeps, close escorts, top covers, etc.
Daylight and night flying were two entirely different things and generally RAF BC pilots lacked experience in this regard.
Nobody is going to cover anything but there must be some proofs and not conclusions drawn on vague arguments.

Olve

Originally Posted by odybvig

It seems that nobody knows

If nobody knows, how do you know they were not there?

As I said; one of the reason. That's my conclusion

Your conclusions drawn on rather weak evidence. Tell me, if there were any actions to be taken, would the Squadron leader remain on his position up until April 1945?

Based on similar evidence as yours I may say Norses were poor on escort duties as they never got Mustangs. Pretty well reasoned. It is a nonsense of course, but similar to your logic.

[odybvig]

Yes Franek it seems like the Polish 315 Sqn performed this mission perfectly.
And the proof for that is:
Not seen by the Lancaster planes
Not seen by the pilots from 9./JG 5
Not mentions in the german combat report
Fw 190 could attack the Lancaster without any Mustang involvment

Yes a good day for 315 Sqn (as always for every polish or polish related pilot who have ever walked this earth)

Have a nice day
Olve

[Kjetil Aakra]

Oh, my god, now you're really being unreasonable, Franek!

Let's just examine your claims one by one:

1. "I see no evidence that 315 performed badly on this mission. "

Hm, escort not seen by enemy nor the bombers, seems to me they did performed rather badly!! Or do we have different understanding of what "escort" means?

2. "I see the mission did not went entirely according to plan, but perhaps those were planners responsible, who send only one Squadron to escort such a big formation?"

If they had BEEN there that would surely have helped, no?? Or do you blame the bombers who outran their escort or wouldn't stay in formation with them?? This is getting stupid, Franek. Besides, you have not a shread of evidence that there was fautly planning here, yet you want us to forego all the evidencewe have presented to support our side have and beleive your "perhaps"???!! Not gonna happen, Franek.

3. "The fact that some people have not seen them is no proof of anything."

Kind of proves they were not there, doesn't it?? Or would you claim they were there but did not attack??! I dare not make such a claim myself.

4. "Standard procedure was to climb into the sun to avoid surprising attack and orbit. It is obvious this tactics could not work with so many Lancasters flying on their own and the escort was not adequate. Comparison to other attacks is not fair either. Any daylight attack involved several Squadrons flying diversions, sweeps, close escorts, top covers, etc."

Flying on their own!????? Are you really suggesting the Lancaster did not want escort and wanted to be left alone? But at least you now admit the escort was not adequate. Also see below.

5. "Daylight and night flying were two entirely different things and generally RAF BC pilots lacked experience in this regard."

But not the Squadrons in question here as I tried to tell you. This argument doesn't hold water, Franek.

6. " Nobody is going to cover anything but there must be some proofs and not conclusions drawn on vague arguments."

We have interviews with allied and German aircraft who were there that dy, we have ORBs, we have statements and circumstantial evidence up or asses - hardly vague arguments, Franek. Except to you.

I have read quite a lot of the threads and discussions you have participated in, Franek. You have a quite unfair and scientifcally very unsound way of arguing. You repeatedly claim that you oponent has weak evidence that cannot really prove anything and excel in drawing attention to things that cannot be proven and then you take that to mean that your point of view is supported, often without ever quoting actual sources or evidence supporting your claims. You also tend to present strawman and ad hominem arguments.

I'll let this rest now, as I find Olve more than proved his case. I think only you have a problem with that.

Kjetil Aakra

[Smudger Smith]

Having started this tread I feel I should at least add some off the comments recorded within the No. 3 Group Squadron ORB’s I have in my collection regarding escorts. Generally the Lanc crews were unaware of the squadrons involved let alone the nationality of the pilots. The only real criticism I found regarding escorts was the December 12th daylight to Witten. On this occasion the poor formation keeping by approximately 40 Lanc’s of No.31 Base resulted in the escort being over stretched and the G.A.F carry-out a vicious hit and run attack resulting in a number of Lancs being shot down.It would appear that one of the problems on this occasion was the inflexibility of the escort to adapt to the problem; it was only the frantic firing of a number of red Very pistol flares that attracted the RAF escort, if but too late. In general the crews of No.3 Group had the greatest respect for and appreciation of the escorts. Regarding the Polish escort pilots, I had the opportunity of talking at length with a former 218 Sqdn pilot who operated in 1945, he had nothing but admiration for them, they were easily identified by the red & white national flag plastered on their nose. However he did say that he personally was always worried that if confronted by a number of German fighters, the Poles would have just waded in leaving them (the bombers) to the own devices, he never felt this with the RAF. I don’t think this aggressive fighter spirit should be condemned, however I was never sitting on top of 12,000lb of HE in a slow moving Lanc. !!Steve

[Franek Grabowski]

Steve
Complaints about stretched formations continued, it was particularly dangerous during jet attacks, when escort had a very little time to react.
One interesting question is communications between bombers and escorts, I do not recall any comments in this regard but a short note of bomber leader contacting escort leader on 9.04.1945 raid to Hamburg and Vereys.
I see that nobody replied your original question - I am not sure what Americans had been doing but I do not think that escort methods changed since 1942/43 Ramrods. There was more stress on advanced sweeps, possible due to Mustangs but otherwise I think it was the same job. I have some sketches of formations somewhere.
By the way, do you have any accounts of the 218 Sqn pilot somehow recorded?

Kjetil
I clearly see there is a different science in Norway. In civilised world opinions are neither proofs nor evidence and opinions to contrary must be discussed.
Olve presented here his own opinions as facts and completely dismissed opposite evidence. Science, huh?

1. "I see no evidence that 315 performed badly on this mission. "
Hm, escort not seen by enemy nor the bombers, seems to me they did performed rather badly!! Or do we have different understanding of what "escort" means?

I suggest to read something about escort controversies involving Galland or Doolittle.

2. "I see the mission did not went entirely according to plan, but perhaps those were planners responsible, who send only one Squadron to escort such a big formation?"
If they had BEEN there that would surely have helped, no?? Or do you blame the bombers who outran their escort or wouldn't stay in formation with them?? This is getting stupid, Franek. Besides, you have not a shread of evidence that there was fautly planning here, yet you want us to forego all the evidencewe have presented to support our side have and beleive your "perhaps"???!! Not gonna happen, Franek.

I do not have any evidence of bad planning in this case. I am awared of bad planning during eg. 7.12.1944 strike raid, conclusions being drawn immediatelly. I have seen plans and tactical instructions for various missions. My experience tells me, that without knowledge of the plan, any accusations are out of place.
As yet you have not provided ANY evidence 315 Sqn obeyed orders.

3. "The fact that some people have not seen them is no proof of anything."
Kind of proves they were not there, doesn't it?? Or would you claim they were there but did not attack??! I dare not make such a claim myself.

Well, I am wondering, why cannot you understand that simple fact, that according to both ORB and a pilot taking part in the mission, the Lancasters were flying over such a large area, they were unable to cover them? Does not fit to your theories?

4. "Standard procedure was to climb into the sun to avoid surprising attack and orbit. It is obvious this tactics could not work with so many Lancasters flying on their own and the escort was not adequate. Comparison to other attacks is not fair either. Any daylight attack involved several Squadrons flying diversions, sweeps, close escorts, top covers, etc."
Flying on their own!????? Are you really suggesting the Lancaster did not want escort and wanted to be left alone? But at least you now admit the escort was not adequate. Also see below.

Of course the escort was not adequate. Almost 40 Lancasters covered by 11 Mustangs, do you consider this a proper escort? A proper operation should involve at least two Wings of Mustangs flying both escort and sweeps. But to realise that you should have a basic knowledge on planning and execution of such operations, which apparently you are lacking.

5. "Daylight and night flying were two entirely different things and generally RAF BC pilots lacked experience in this regard."
But not the Squadrons in question here as I tried to tell you. This argument doesn't hold water, Franek.

The argument entirely holds water, as there was a completely different escort on operations to Western Europe.

6. " Nobody is going to cover anything but there must be some proofs and not conclusions drawn on vague arguments."
We have interviews with allied and German aircraft who were there that dy, we have ORBs, we have statements and circumstantial evidence up or asses - hardly vague arguments, Franek. Except to you.

Apparently you do not have ORB of 315 Sqn and did not interview any pilots of the unit, do you? You do not have mission plan, do you? You do not have court of inquiry findings, do you?
You just draw your conclusions based on pieces of evidence and another conclusions, that is all. Call it 'your science' but not science.

Olve
Apart of comments to Kjetil.

Yes a good day for 315 Sqn (as always for every polish or polish related pilot who have ever walked this earth)

I see this comment being racially or nationalistically biased and I think Ruy should intervene.

[John Beaman]

OK, I am closing this thread. It was, potentially, and interesting discussion, but the participants have gotten way off any logical replies and documentation to the point that further discussion seems pointless.