Photo Nieuport

[Stig Jarlevik]

Well Clint (Nick)

For what its worth, yes I read the same digits....

Cheers
Stig

[Buckeye30]

My apologies it's clearly an 11; must be more careful.
Thanks
Nick

[Stig Jarlevik]

No need to Nick

You put the finger on the main problem with Nieuport aircraft, their version numberings and serial numbers applied.
Did the French really order the Nieuport aircraft in such small batches or did they let the factory more or less decide by itself what every given serial number should apply for?

Looking at the known Nieuport serials and beside an initial hefty amount of Type 10 we more or less come to face a myriad of small batches of Type 10, 11, 16 (from about serial 800 range). The situation seems to stablize somewhat later, but I still feel the ordered batches are way too small.

If we now agree that N1386 was a Type 11, why are seemingly N1368 to N1385 (many blanks in between) and N1392 reported as Type 16 and N1396, N1398 as Type 17 and so on?

By mid 1915 (and certainly in 1916) the French must have realised that this would be a long war and to order small batches like this just seems incomprehensible.
At this point I confess, no I haven't looked at the other known manufactures, so perhaps they all followed the same road, and if so what was the purpose of that?

In the above Nieuport case, we have then that a maximum of six Type 11 was inserted inbetween batches of Type 16 and possibly Type 17 as well.

If we had not been able to see that N1386 was given as Type 11 I would gladly have put the Type 16 range all the way from N1368 to N1392!!

Are we facing a large number of misidentified airframes or what?

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


The Nieuport serials certainly are a headache.I wonder if the issues with the Nieuport 11 and Nieuport 16 might have been related to engine availability which might account for continued Nieuport 11 production even after the introduction of the Nieuport 16. Pure speculation of course. Also given the state of the records unless once has a good view of the serial number of an aircraft identity mistakes may as you indicate be a factor. This doesn't really help with the Nieuport 17 in the 13xx serial run though. I have N.1364 and possibly N.1372 as Nieuport 17s.Presumably the early Nieuport 17s came off a seperate assembly lines and numbers were assigned as machines were completed. Seems bonkers though.



This problem doesn't seems as marked with other french manufacturers in my opinion. Thus while it appears that small numbers of Spad S.XII for example might be preceded and succeeded by Spad S.VII there is not the same scattering of indivudal aircraft types as seems typical for Nieuport.


Meanwhile here are some sadly somewhat disfigured images of Nieuport 12 9238 of the RNAS:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-RNAS-...EAAOSwTupf29pr

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-RNAS-...UAAOSw~mxf29Y4

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-an-RN...IAAOSwDchf29kF


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

It is possible Clint

But even temporary engine shortages doesn't really explain why so small batches came off the production lines.

I can only assume that if Nieuport got an order for let's say 100 aircraft of Type 11 and 50 aircraft Type 16, they would all have had specific SFA numbers assigned to them. Or did SFA really give Nieuport an order for 150 aircraft (and numbers) and told them to assign whatever number they felt for within this batch?

Looking at the known aircraft serial numbers the latter seems at least like a possibillity but if that really was the case, it is certainly not how I would have done things!

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


As I said all of this is highly conjectural and may be complete nonsense on my part.


But the way my thinking was going is that the SFA ordered say 100 Nieuport 16. However, the number of Le Rhone 9J available, and it was a new engine in 1916, was not immediately enough to fit to all the mahines ordred, so some were completed with the Le Rone 9C, thus making them Nieport 11, rather than sitting idly at the factory.waiting for more Le Rhone 9J to be delivered.


However, one thing that does strike me as surprising is the small period of time between the introduction of the Nieuport 11 and what should have logically been its successor the Nieuport 16. Where's is the logic? Still, as I say probably all complete nonsense and historical documentatin is needed to expalin the unusual Nieuport serials.


Regards,


Clint

[Buckeye30]

Clint the Nie. XIIbis is from N77 at the time their Nieuports had personal emblems, before the pennant style; Adj. Raoul Monrouzeau and Sgt. Andre Koestner were POWs ( 7-11-1916).
The red star was also used as an early insignia by Esc.103.
Nick


Edit....Esc.101 had a blue star.

[musec04]

Hello,


Currently on ebay is a photo of Nieuport 23 A6796 of 60 Squadron at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-erbeute...QAAOSwq7tgGRPQ



Also on ebay is a photo of a downed RFC Nieuport 23 A679* at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-abgestu...MAAOSwwjRgGRbD


The same seller has a photo of a more intact Nieuport in German hands at:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-erbeute...EAAOSwsNlgGRWY


Unfortunately while the serial is shown on the aileron it is not legible.


Regards,


Clint

[Buckeye30]

A679* probably either A6794 E. J. Pascoe 29 Sqn. KIA 14/4/17 ( V. Doring Jasta 4)
or
A6797 F. Sadler 29 Sqn. KIA 21/4/17 ( Schafer Jasta 11).
Both Types 23.
Nick

[Stig Jarlevik]

Same conclusion myself Nick.

Maybe we have the same book?

Cheers
Stig