Red-Cross marked He59s July 1940

[Brian Bines]

Seaplanes, thanks for the information

[Brian]

Hi Seaplanes (and others)

Of course I second that

Cheers
Brian

[Kutscha]

What was the rational in shooting down these Red Cross marked a/c? I have seen some people state this was a war crime but then they do have a hate on for the British.

[mars]

Originally Posted by Kutscha

What was the rational in shooting down these Red Cross marked a/c? I have seen some people state this was a war crime but then they do have a hate on for the British.

The rational was "they were rescuing Luftwaffe aircrews, who would soon back to air and attack us, so we would do our best to rescue them ourselves and take them POW, but we would shot down any Luftwaffe sea planes come to rescue them even those see plane marked with Red Cross"

Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding also made a similar comment in the battle of Britain: he would strict forbidden RAF to shot any Luftwaffe aircrews who bale out, but he agree that Germans had very right to shoot RAF pilots who baled out from their plane, if some Luftwaffe pilots did commit these action, they shall not be treat as war criminals

[Peter Cornwell]

This is a request for clarification on certain points of detail raised in this thread that I have followed with interest. Currently I have the following SNFKdo losses listed on the dates shown:

July 20, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 1 Heinkel He59. Abandoned by crew 25 miles south of Selsey during rescue mission following attempts by Green Section of No.601 Squadron (F/O T.E. Hubbard, P/O M.D. Doulton, and P/O T. Grier) to shepherd inland 7.20 p.m. Four NCOs baled out and all missing. Aircraft 100% write-off.

July 20, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 4 Heinkel He59 (0838). Shot down by P/O J.R. Urwin-Mann of No.238 Squadron during air-sea rescue mission three miles off Cherbourg 3.15 p.m. FF Fw Herbert Degel killed, BO Fw Gustav Luppe, BF Gefr John-Werner Rosenthal, and BM Hptgefr Peter Filz all missing. Aircraft D-AKAR 100% write-off.
The body of Herbert Degel was reported washed ashore in France on August 20.


July 27, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 3 Heinkel He59 (1989). Shot down in the Channel during air-sea rescue mission 10 miles north-east of Dover by Hurricanes of No.615 Squadron (S/L J.R. Kayll, F/O P. Collard, F/O R.D. Pexton, P/O P.H. Hugo, P/O S.J. Madle, and P/O D.H. Hone) 7.00 p.m. FF Oberlt Erich Chudziak, BO Uffz Ernst Mälzer, BM Uffz Josef Baumiller, and BS Gefr Willi Paddags all missing, BF Uffz Josef Bühs rescued wounded. Aircraft D-AROO 100% write-off.


July 28, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 3 Heinkel He59N (1851). Shot down by Sgt J. Robinson of No.111 Squadron during rescue mission and crash-landed on water ten miles west of Boulogne 3.05 p.m. BM Hptgefr Richard Nüchter and BS Gefr Paul Berg both killed, BO Lt Helmut Sandgaard, FF Georg Niwiadomski, and BF Obergefr Ludwig Fengel all rescued wounded. Aircraft D-ASUC 100% write-off.

July 28, 1940: SeenotflugKdo. 1 Heinkel He59N. Landed on sea 15 km west of Boulogne to assist crippled He59 (D-ASUC) of SeenotflugKdo.3 and severely damaged in attack by P/O H.M. Ferriss of No.111 Squadron 3.15 p.m. BO Lt Hermann Wählke and BF Fw Gerhard Kahl both rescued wounded, rest of crew rescued unhurt. Aircraft 60% damaged - write-off.

I appreciate that some of this differs significantly from what has gone before & I am anxious to correct any errors in my understanding. So my question is, does anyone hold any contemporary documentation such as KTBs or particularly NVMs that either supports or contradicts this version of events ? If you can assist, by PM or otherwise, then many thanks.

[Bruce Dennis]

Originally Posted by mars

The rational was "they were rescuing Luftwaffe aircrews, who would soon back to air and attack us, so we would do our best to rescue them ourselves and take them POW, but we would shot down any Luftwaffe sea planes come to rescue them even those see plane marked with Red Cross"

Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding also made a similar comment in the battle of Britain: he would strict forbidden RAF to shot any Luftwaffe aircrews who bale out, but he agree that Germans had very right to shoot RAF pilots who baled out from their plane, if some Luftwaffe pilots did commit these action, they shall not be treat as war criminals

Hello Mars,
Enigma intercepts were decrypted that revealed instructions to have He 59 and Do 18 aircraft use their patrols for convoy spotting and tracking. As I understand it, these orders from Berlin were relayed by Luftflotte 3 and it was at this point that the decryption occurred. There were also a number of Enigma messages decoded giving the position and strength of coastal convoys that could only have come from aerial observation, and the only German aircraft in the area had been rescue craft. This tied in with reports from the WAAF listeners in Kent who were tracking the Luftwaffe Seenot flights and suspected the same thing, as the German Rescue aircraft were being sent to areas where there was no known air activity, hence no reason for ASR, and radioing reports of convoys/shipping while in the air.

The British Y service based in Kent listened to radio transmissions of voice and Morse messages. They learned, by meticulous analysis, the meaning of many of the three-letter and four letter codes in German use as well as the voice codes (kirchturm for height etc.). This applies to all of the German services they tuned in to, from the Luftwaffe to the Police. This was the job of the Y service, to listen to and write down the transmissions. If they could not interpret the meaning straight away, they would send the transcript to Cheadle or one of the other stations for decrypting. Y service did not decrypt enigma traffic, in fact very few people in the Y services knew about the Ultra codebreaking success.

At this time, July 1940, there was no D/F (direction finding) apparatus working with the Y service listening posts so while the WAAFs listening to the broadcast may have suspected the He59s were not in an area where a rescue was needed, they couldn’t prove it immediately. It was only possible to put the pieces together by taking the position of the convoy and comparing the radar tracks of shadowing aircraft, recorded at another RAF station away from the listening station, and comparing them to the radio transcripts later. All this took time, so the Enigma intercepts were separate confirmation of what had been heard by the RAF Y operators at Hawkinge, Kent, in July 1940. It caused quite a stir at the time because the role of the He59s and the small Air Sea Rescue surface craft of both sides were respected but the confirmation was via Enigma traffic and was conclusive.

No mention of the intelligence sources was permissible, so other reasons were given.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

[Brian Bines]

A few years ago on a TV programme a former senior Luftwaffe officer gave the German view on the He59 flights. Basically he said the Luftwaffe had enough fast Recon. aircraft without the need to call on the Seenot aircraft. The assembly of a convoy was also noted by general luftwaffe activity at the time, and were hardly invisible as they sailed through the Channel. He also pointed out that the air battles in the early part were often over or near the convoys so that is of where the Seenot. would start their searches and backtrack from the a convoy.
Infantrymen running from an enemy advance even if they have discarded their weapons are still fired on as are tank crews jumping from destroyed tanks. It is quite logical to seek to kill enemy aircrew who otherwise will return to attack ones country although not a choice everyone would make.

[John Vasco]

Bruce,
Brilliant explanation. Game, set and match on that particular issue.

[ju55dk]

Just to show the matter from the point of the Luftwaffe. They were aware that the Red-Cross marked maschines probably did not fall under the Geneva-Convention at the time. But they did try to live up to it by strictly forbidding any form of reporting that did not have anything to do with rescue.
See attached copy from Seenotdienst Nord.

Junker

[Brian]

Hi Junker and others

Any chance of an English translation of the report, please.

Cheers
Brian