Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945

[RT]

Seems Ouidjat, learn french with a girl, seems to me more an erotic expression..

remi

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Dear Carl,

Thanks for your thorough and methodical analysis of my latest guesswork, I really appreciate it.

It is most interesting to fully know the meaning of "Flumann GmbH", also precising the start of acceptation flights in Wertheim.

-Also good to know that the Vilseck-Amberg-Schafhof flight acceptances were upkept that long; thanks for enlighting us all about Roland's question and hypothesis.

- As for my statement for the shifting of final assembly from Bodenwöhr to Wertheim, I always meant "partial shifting", ofc not general shifting. Thanks for your precision about the small size of this delocalization and confirming engineless fuselages, wing sets and engines with cowlings, like the ones documented near the Schlossberg tunnel, do fully illustrate the term of "Grossbauteile". I still remain with my question about easier engine availability in Wertheim then in Bodenwöhr for the time frame March - April 1945 as the root-cause for this Mtt outsourcing.

As for your last point, we can but concur, see my post #45); no chance to mate wings and fuselages within this narrow one-track tunnel, hence the fuselages photographed in the surrounding woods on 2 April 1945:

Quote (post #45)
"What can we deduce? In both locations, the Bf 109 K-4 airframes do show the same level of fitting out: wires and boxes are already substantially fixed on the bulkhead's lower part; lower engine bearers only fixed. Evidence so far is thin, but on this basis, there is no indication that those airframes had their engines fitted at Bodenwöhr and then removed at Wertheim prior their dispersal in the woods. In the contrary, the fact that both the engines on trolleys and the wing sets were all located either next to or at the entrance of the Schlossberg tunnel does speak for sub-assemblies arriving there by railroad, being offloaded and readied in the tunnel workshop before being transported to the uphill forrested areas for mating on the waiting fuselages. Let's also remember the latter were dispersed in the woods surrounding Wertheim's airfield where the fly-ins and handing over tasks were carried out. "

Thanks again for your much valued input

Cheers
Marc

.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Dear Ouidjat,

I always highly appreciate the "rabid balls" of Professeur Choron ;-)))

More seriously, checking out the by far the best current reference book on the Bf 109 K (Poruba and Mol 2000, JaPo) I did find three machines which likely sport thise "snake" Bodenwöhr patterns (look at my post #9):

Quote:

"One last point to take into account when thinking on this "near Wertheim" typical camouflage pattern. I perused all published Bf 109K-4 pictures available to me and found at least three operational machines with this same camouflage pattern:

"- Bf 109 K-4, W.Nr. unknown, "Black 1" of 10. /JG 51, Ronne stadium, 4th May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 70 - 73).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown, JG 52 (?), Ceske Budejovice, May 1945, (Poruba and Mol 2000, 63).
- Bf 109 K-4, W. Nr unknown "White 8", JG 52 (?), May 1945 (Poruba and Mol 2000, 46 - 47). This one is illustrated by stills of a colour fim shot by the US Army; the film can be seen on Youtube."

Cheers
Marc

[ouidjat]

Believe me or not but she really was an archeologist working on Carcassone area while I was reabilitating some antics as stone mason...
Yes Marc, Thank you.
Means the one I got looks exactly what it seems to be.
Regards,
Franck.

[masmar]

Hey guys,

Marc, thank you very much for the further information on the "Goldfisch" underground facility. Really interesting facts you provide.
As well thanks for summing up what we got so far.

Carl, thank you for the facts and figures on that Bodenwöhr-Wertheim relation. They're really helpful to underline our theories.

I want to add another point which is still open. Namely the question where the picture ,showing the unfinished fuselages stacked on each other was taken. In post #30 Roland propose Vilseck as a probable location. Maybe we can prove that in a way. I think it's an really fascinating picture and it would be great if we could get some more background on it. But first things first
Wish you all a nice sunday!

Matthias

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hi there, Matthias,

You're most welcome! As for the pile of unfinished fuselages discarded along a railway line, I can only hope that Roland might shed some more definitive light as to its precise location. Here for the sake of commodity within this thread this pic, originally uploaded on Flickr by WW2vet on 16 July 2009, with no location given.

And the direct Flickr link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...38498/sizes/o/

When blown up, you will notice above and to the right of the fuselages in the foreground at least two files of railroad wagons, with quite a big building emerging beyond. Those are tell-tale signs for a railway station; maybe this clue will be enough to pinpoint the place, probably photographed between late November 1945 and March 1946 (look at the stark naked trees in the background..).

For developping our discussion, I also hope soemone will find and publish photos of the Bodenwöhr assembly line as found by US troops; those must surely exist, as they do for Flossenbürg or Augsburg....

In the meantime, have all the best possible...Monday morning;-))

Cheers
Marc

[RolandF]

Gentlemen,

I´d like to add a map of the Vilseck-Heringnohe and Vilseck/railway complex with the landing strip upper left and the main railway tracks running north - south. The landing strip and the surroundings are not accessible: (US training ground Grafenwoehr)

http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/Bayern...ayer=TK&step=4

Here you see the airfield railway joining the main tracks:

http://www.geodaten.bayern.de/Bayern...yer=DOP&step=2

The tracks nowadays have been removed but the curved dam is still visible, ending in a huge dam used by the still existent main railway line Weiden-Nuremberg. The railway visible on the horizon of the flickr - photos runs on a dam, too. The building style looks a lot like the Upper Palatinate...

Not lying far from the tracks I think the fuselages had been hastily "emptied" from railway wagons including the damaged Bf109s and the Me 262. Those IMO were destined for a "Zerlegebetrieb" or being repaired

The DB 605 trolleys in Wertheim are not intended for use in the open but on assembly tracks. Schmoll shows photos of DB 605s on such trolleys running on a "Feldbahn" in "Waldwerk Gauting" (= Hagelstadt).

It does not seem improbable to me whole parts of the Bodenwöhr-Cham and Flossenbürg-Vilseck production including tools and machinery were brought to Wertheim for the final assembly there.

Regards

Roland

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hallo Roland,

Thanks to your maps, everything fits in perfectly! Taking a close look on the other two pictures taken at the same time and at the same place, we can exactly pinpoint the dumping place of the Bodenwöhr camouflage patterned fuselages.

Here is the link and pic for the partially dismantled Bf 109 K-4 W. Nr unknown, "< 5" IV./JG 53, taken next to the unfinished K-4 fuselage pile of the above picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...7622070197999/

The second picture shows the wrecks of two Me 262's and in the background the front of the same Bf 109K-4 "<5" of IV./JG 53:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4036184...7622070197999/

Now please, note two elements:

- first the discarded wings of a Ju 88 G. Having this in your mind, check out the K-4 fuselages pile, and you will see on the left a lone Jumo 213 lying among them. This engine might stems from the same machine.

- The background is paramount here: the railroad main line on its dam is very obvious, it's direction given by the same two very long freight trains we see in the background of the piled-up Bodenwöhr Bf 109K-4 fuselages. They station on side tracks which still exist nowadays (see the "Bayernwiever" link just posted by Roland). Now, following the line of the railway dam above the upturned Ju 88 wing, we notice that the main railway line remains on a strait line, as indicated by the wagons disappearing in the distance whilst a railway embranchment, also set on an earthen dam, takes a wide curve to the left. Taking also in account the houses seen in the background, this exactly situates the aircraft dump in the meadows along the main Weiden - Nuremberg line, just after Vilseck, where the former embranchment to Heringnohe airfield left the main line.

With this photographic evidence, we can position the Bf 109 K-4 "<5" and the two Me 262 fuselages a bit further to the south then the Bodenwöhr Bf 109 K-4 fuselages, dumped a bit further north, as evidenced by the first of the three trees planted along the curved railway dam leading towards Heringnohe airfield, which shows in both pictures. Hooray!!

Roland, thanks again for your invaluable help in anchoring geographically this set of three pictures, a big asset in pinpointing the trail left by the Bodenwöhr K-4 fuselages!

And now,gents, let's hope some new photographic evidence might show up from the Cham municipal administration! And let's not forget the Flossenbürg camouflaged K-4 fuselages parked along this "location unknown" Holzrückerweg...

Cheers
Marc

[masmar]

Hey Roland and Marc,

great work on analyzing those pics and comparing with those modern aerophotos.I think the analogies are really big enough, that we can see that scene as proven. So, I think we can close the next case great!

I hope I'll find some time to have a look on that archiv collection in Cham.
The office hours are a bit unfavorable, so unfortunately it won't go there withing the next weeks. - I'll keep you guys informed.

Regards
Matthias

[RolandF]

Hallo Matthias and Marc,

as local resident one tends to emphasize evidence in favour of the local sites. So it´s good to have one´s assessments confirmed by some neutral Swiss "authorities".
Vilseck was my main contender for the site of this photos from the beginning. I´ve been on site several weeks ago (25km from where I live) but unfortunately only on bike - the only way to follow the traces of the airfield tracks, btw. Due to menacing rainfall I wasn´t able to take parallel pics. I want to catch up on that to get the final proof.

Until that, here´s an aerial view of Vilseck-Heringnohe airfield with the course of the former airfield railway visible just below. Somewhere in the area left of the curve the pile of the K-4s must have been placed in spring 1945.

http://home.arcor-online.de/alois.la...te/vilseck.htm

Regards

Roland