Most Representative Luftwaffe Pilot?

[Franek Grabowski]

I thought that the thread should be forgotten, but as the general subject reappears in various forms, I believe it should be refreshed.
I concur with Chris S and I am terrified. I do not like PC but some thesis presented here are a so called 'nazi revisionist propaganda'. In short it is an old song, they were brave, they were chivalrous, they did not know, they were following orders, they had no mean of protest, etc. All of this could be debunked, given a little bit of good will and research. Mind you that Allied intelligence did a constant monitoring of morale of German society, this including analysis of letters send home by soldiers. This shows perfectly extent of knowledge about crimes, as well as decline of morale in 1943, when Germany started to loose the war. Informations are available either from period publications (like RAF Intel Bulletins) or from archives, I believe TNA should have a good file on it. They leave no shade of doubt, those interested knew perfectly well, what is going around, and the one must have been dumb, not to know that there is something fishy about it.
It is worth to note German behaviour in Poland. The war started here, so theoretically participating soldiers should not be influenced by combat stress and increasing brutality. Despite that, number of crimes committed by German soldiers (and it was mostly Wehrmacht's and Luftwaffe's war) is astonishing. Certainly there were individuals, who opposed it, and did not like it, but they were individuals indeed. En masse it was a machine of death and terror, and while I am not against research of particular men, and even sympathy towards them, I am deeply disgusted by removing their stories from the brute context. It is not only excusing of crimes, or lack of taste, but especially lack of common sense.
While talking individuals, I must stress one particular point. While reading about various criminals and degenerates, both nazi and communistic, it was a strucking thing to find out, they were often so nice and friendly fellas. Read about Mengele, how friendly he was towards children, so they freely called him uncle! I bet, if he survived to this day, you would be claiming he could not have been a nazi, and all of this is just a propaganda.
Finally, I find it deeply offensive the general approach here towards Allied soldiers. Certainly various countries had troubled history in their long term of existence, and certainly some decisions undertaken during the war should be discussed. It is obvious, that some Allied soldiers committed crimes or did other shameful things, sometimes because they were bad people, sometimes because of emotions. Nonetheless such behaviour was minor and never accepted by majority of servicemen.
One old good sample for this.
It happened in 1944 that in the heat of a briefing, one Allied general said something, that could have been an encouragement to strafe civilians. Airmen were so disgusted, that in a short time a statement was issued, that in no way this speech should be interpreted this way. Those interested may find a reproduction of original paper in Spit & Polish book.
I find it especially shameful, that such words happen on a site supposed to be a place for knowledgeable and educated people.

[yogybär]

To the topic:
If I should look out for a pilot, I would opt for a successfull guy, who really did a great job. A kind of exemplary for other pilots, like a "represantative" should be. Who would send the most normal of his personal to a "representation" ?.

My choice:

Gerhard Barkhorn

- he flew like a work animal with his >1.100 missions
- he was very successfull
- he never had the strange masses of kills other super-aces filed
- and apparently was "clean" enough to get into the Bundesluftwaffe

To another topic:

Originally Posted by ChrisS

Sorry chaps I just don't buy this 'they were just decent blokes like our boys' stuff.

Most Germans under the age of 20 in 1939 had over 6 years of service in Nazi political youth movements of some sort especially those who had glider training. Nazism wound it's evil coils around the the very fabric of German life, books, education, radio, voluntary organisations etc etc there was no way anybody escape it's all-pervasive influence. Most of the Luftwaffe was heavily indoctrinated from the top downwards this only began to crack as the true nature of Nazism began to become evident, and only then when defeat and the falibility of Hitler was plain for all to see.

I support this. I am german, and believe me, I thought a lot about "how these ancestors of mine were". The main question inside this for me is:

- Where they all racists and militarists?

My answer is: Maybe not all, but most of them were racist. They were nationalists (like many people today are), but not militarists.

I just spent a week together with a relative who was born in 1913. It is fascinating to hear her talk about her grandparents (who were born ca. 1860!) and about former times she lived through.

But it is really strange, when she starts talking about "Jews, the annihilation of our culture and other races". She has a "Weltanschauung" (picture of the world) which still reflects the racism and a fight between different groups, at least that "somebody" wants to destroy Germany.

On the other hand: These generations had to change their way of life (and partly, thinking) so strong... there was a lot of "Antisemitismus" also in other european countries, and they did partly support the german holocoust-system. And as the grew up in such a totalitary and media-controlling state, I cannot point my finger to these people born in the 1920ies.

PS: For sure we are definitely also indoctrinated, see stuff like:
- "bio-weapons" in Iraq as THE argument to attack
- the "axis of evil", Al-Quaida etc.
- the "good USA", who protect the world from XYZ
- "Democracy"
- maybe even "CO2 will kill our climate"?
Let's see what lies in front of us all...

[ChrisS]

Like Franek I had hoped that this kind of topic had died out but I see almost (and I mean almost) neo-facist tendencies in some of the writing here.

REALITY CHECK

Lets be absolutely plain: the nazis (and their allies) were thoroughly evil, and because of them almost 60,000,000 people died. That's 60,000,000 people who wanted to live and enjoy life, who were just like you and me, and like your mother, your father, brother, sister and children. Many would still be alive today. Most of these 60,000,000 were non combatants. The nazis themslves were directly responsible for the deaths of over 6,000,000 innocent civilians in unjustified state-controlled racist genocide.
Of the 50,000,000 that died in the western wars the German armed forces directly resoponsible for their deaths either by action or inaction. Apart from directly causing death by military action the luftwaffe as part of the German armed forces by enthusiastically engaging in aggressive war enabled the axis to conquor the enemies of the nazi state and thus prolonged the war so that the genocide could continue unabated.

No amount of excellent looking aircraft, wonderful aircraft colour schemes, superb uniforms, admiration for military prowess makes up for the basic truth that these men were responsible for the deaths of 50,000,0000 people. If you disagree with this statement I humbly suggest that you make it a priority to visit either your own countries Holocaust museum, if you belong to an allied nation your local war memorial and take a look at the names on the stone, or visit as I have Oradour-Sur-Glane in France or maybe even Auschwitz or easiest go take out Schindlers List on DVD rental (if you can't cry at someplace in this most amazing film then........). The point Iam trying to make is don't let our interest hide th truth about the nazis and the Luftwaffe.

I guess we all here have an interest in the Luftwaffe, but please take a reality check

Chris

[krichter33]

There were over 18 million Germans who served in the Wehrmacht during the War. I guess we are supposed to believe that the majority of these men were war criminals and committed atrocities. My God! With so many murderers running around it is a wonder there were any innocent civilians left in Europe...

[Jim P.]

Give it rest. These gentlemen make very valid points, and I have to say I've mentally wrestled with this argument many times on my own. My own political beliefs tend to run to the side of being very liberal, and I've have spent way to much energy being very po'ed about over the last 8 years seeing my own country having to deal with the very disastrous policies pushed by very right wing, no nothing politicians and their media allies, and the 'with us or against us' bs that went with it. Notice how that's disappeared in a month.

In the end, on the one hand, I'm still fascinated by the Lw and other parts of the German armed forces in WWII, but never forget they were part of what was ultimately a very repressive, murderous regime. And I'm from the U.S. While we were certainly there, so to speak, guys like Franek, who's from Poland, and Chris, who I suspect is from England, have a very different perspective than me because their countries were occupied and/or a target of the bombs. I can say I understand, but in reality there is no way I can relate to what happened in either country.
On the otherhand, I believe that trying to erase the Nazi regime from history, which seems to be the case over the last 30-40 years, also erases the lessons that should be learned and remembered by us all. And to be honest, I think that history education, or lack thereof, is a big reason why my own country was headed down the road it was on the last 8+ years. Nobody wants to say the word, but if you look up the the definition of fascist, and see where this country was headed - if one is truly honest with themselves, then its as plain as day.
Where's that next beer -

[yogybär]

Originally Posted by Jim P.

Where's that next beer

Cheers, Jim .

Good that you found the humour exit!

[ChrisS]

Originally Posted by krichter33

There were over 18 million Germans who served in the Wehrmacht during the War. I guess we are supposed to believe that the majority of these men were war criminals and committed atrocities. My God! With so many murderers running around it is a wonder there were any innocent civilians left in Europe...

Sad to see a modern day German take this kind of tone.

As I said before we (sorry the Allies) beat them and took away their ability to make war. Had we not done so the 18 million Wehrmacht would have enabled the Nazis (and to have contributed some of their own Wehrmacht orchestrated atrocities as well) to murder all of Europe's Jews and Gypsy with a long-term goal of working to death in slavery all the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe (Poles, Slovenes, Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians Czechs - sorry if I missed any -the Nazis wouldn't have). The Nazis couldn't have done it without the Wehrmacht. The Wehrmacht would not have been victorious without the Nazis. The two are inexorably inter-wined. Sorry, what was hanging from the claws of the eagles on their hats, on their breasts on their belts ration books pay books even stamped on their socks and underwear and finally on so many, many of their graves?

Jim P.

I respect your well written and thought through post but I will not 'give it a rest' and I am not in favour of removing/airbrushing the Nazis from history, quite the opposite in fact. Nor am I a liberal, perish that thought, rather I am politically right-wing and very defiantly non-PC. You are correct in that I live in England. My mother lost ALL here childhood Friends in London's blitz. She also lost her family home and all the family possession's. The very road she was born in, in Battersea, South-London no longer exists today because of the massive destruction caused by Luftwaffe land mines. My Grandfather lost his job when the Gasworks he managed was destroyed. I could go on and on with my Fathers family wartime issues.... To this my day my country still bears the scars, financial, personal and emotional of the labour it took to crush the criminal military pride of Germany in two world wars. Compared to loses of say Russia, Poland and Yugoslavia our British deprivations were few.

I just get stirred up when I see posts by people who I believe have an secret admiration for Hitler and his ilk. On a Luftwaffe website very similar to this one a recent post was full of 'wows' and 'amazings' for a still surviving underground factory that built Me 262's at the wars end. One of the poster said he couldn't wait to go there and see what remained. If he knows that 6000 people died in building the wretched place he doesn't show it. 6000 slave labourers people like you and me. 6000 people. I didn't comment, perhaps I should?

Chris

[Jan Gazda]

I must admit it is very funny to read such a passionate lecture of moral values from a member of a nation which invented the widespread use of concentration camps and under which enlightened reign around forty million India’s inhabitants have died in reoccurring famines under total indolence of the government. From this point of view the only difference between Nazi regime and British monarchy is just the fact that the British have got away with it.

With the distance of 60 years it is very convenient to make harsh judgments on individuals that had to make decisions under circumstances we can’t imagine. Obviously the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe were waging aggressive war and have committed countless atrocities and the Third Reich had brutally oppressed the minorities under their reign. I do not think anyone with common sense disputes that. The question is what real options an average soldier had. Mutiny? Defection? None of those promised very optimistic outcomes for the individual itself and its family. So they just kept fighting till the end.

However, I think this thread has drifted far away from its original topic ( which was pretty obscure anyway) and we should get back to discussing what “representative” means.

Jan

[ChrisS]

Originally Posted by Jan Gazda

I must admit it is very funny to read such a passionate lecture of moral values from a member of a nation which invented the widespread use of concentration camps and under which enlightened reign around forty million India’s inhabitants have died in reoccurring famines under total indolence of the government. From this point of view the only difference between Nazi regime and British monarchy is just the fact that the British have got away with it.

The question is what real options an average soldier had. Mutiny? Defection? None of those promised very optimistic outcomes for the individual itself and its family. So they just kept fighting till the end.

However, I think this thread has drifted far away from its original topic ( which was pretty obscure anyway) and we should get back to discussing what “representative” means.

Jan

The difference between the Nazis and the British Empire?? Please do tell which history books you have been reading? The invention of the British 'Concentration Camps' by liberal commentators bears no resemblance in form OR substance to the Nazi death camps. In case you have not realized Indians have died by the millions in famines before the British came and after we left. Point of fact: were it not for the construction of roads and railways throughout India still in use today, those famines would have been far, far worse. And the indifference? Not by the British but by the local indigenous rulers who were profiteering from the shortage of food. The very great good that came about from the British Empire, literacy and education, peace, greater life expectancy, justice systems, the establishment of indigenous middle classes, infrastructure, modern agriculture and industry seems to have been forgotten. Look at the awful state of ex British Africa now compared to when the benign British Empire was flourishing. Reality Check.

What could the German soldier have done? I agree a hard question. Obey orders of course, that seemed to be the stock answer when asked to account for heinous crimes. And whilst the victories rolled on, cheer along with the others, as von Stauffenberg, Beck, Von Kluge, Stulpnagel and most of the other July '44 putchists did. It took the resistance of the free world to 'turn' these fine gentlemen into activists. Where oh where do we see active voices of discent in the German Forces raised in repugnance of the crushing of countries like Norway, Holland and Denmark all of whom had expended considerable humanitarian aid to German following the Great War. No, because the German Officer Corps were steadfastly behind Adolf Hitler from day one all the way until things started to go wrong. For every jerrycan filled, bullet fired, rollbahn rail mended, bomb dropped, shell expended and torpedo loosed then the capacity of the Nazi oppression was either increased or upheld therefore every German soldier played a part in the genocide.

Oh I just recalled that an expresion/euphenism that apparently was very common in Germany during the war: it was a curious finger gesture that that began with the index finger making a circle in the air that gradually continued in an upwards direction simulating smoke going up a chimney. I gather this gesture could be made when somebody had disappeared, perhaps as a guest of the Gestapo, or when somebody had died or as a warning to somebody to stop doing something that could be construed as being anti-state or defeatist. Smoke going up the chimney from something burning? Maybe from a death camp's chimney? But the ordinary German soldier didn't know anything about the death camps? Did they?

[Jim P.]

Chris - was not in reference to your post, but to the same person you were responding too.