BRUNNER, Josef, Feldwebel 2/NJG-1

[David Layne]

It is my understanding that Josef Brunner shot down my father's Lancaster, JA 708, 23 September, 1943 at (according to my father's log book) 21:47 hrs. UK time.

The aircraft crashed in the “Palatinate Forest” close to the villages of Hofstätten and Rinnthal.

Six minutes later Brunner claimed another Lancaster, 8 km W of Koblenz. Is it possible to identify this Lancaster?

From where was Brunner flying that night and in what type of aircraft? I presume it was an Me 110 out of Venlo but would like more details.

What became of Brunner? I have read reports that he was killed at the end of the war and others that he survived.

I am attempting to write a blog about my father's wartime experiences and would like to add more about his being shot down. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

To read my efforts so far please go to the site below.

Regards, David.

http://wallyswar.wordpress.com/

[RodM]

Hi,

the war diary of Brunner's late-war Nachtjagdgeschwader - NJG6 simply records that he was posted missing from a ground attack sortie on the night of 25/26 March 1945, but an ULTRA decrypt of an NJG6 signal from a few days after he was posted missing records: "From NJG6, signed Major Luetje dated 30/3: Fw. Brunner transferred w.i.e. To Stab NJG6. To be sent off to 720 ((Unterslauersbach)) at once." From this it can be assumed that he returned to his unit.

Cheers

Rod

[Johannes]

Hi David

Brunner was born on 27th October 1921. He completed his trianing with 1./Ngfs1 and 2./Ngfs1 during 1943 before joining 9./Jg101. During the night of 3rd/4th July 1943 he belly-landed his Bf110 20km South-west of Ducarest, Romania, and wa injured.
He confirmed seven claims, the first four with 2./Njg1, the last three with 10./Njg6, the first five as an Unteroffizier, the last two as a Feldwebel:-

24th August 1943 Halifax NE Templin 0135 hrs 2800 metres Nr.1
23rd September 1943 Lancaster 2250 hrs 5300 metres Nr.2(German time)
23rd September 1943 Lancaster 2256 hrs 3500 metres Nr.3
9th October 1943 Halifax 0304 hrs Nr.4
8th May 1944 B-24 0005 hrs 2700 metres Nr.5
20th September 1944 Wellington North of Neuseidler See 2323 hrs 2000 metres Nr.6
16th March 1945 Lancaster E Ulm 2206 hrs Nr.7

Regards

Johannes

[David Layne]

Many thanks RodM and Johannes for your input.

I am trying to find out more information on Josef Brunner who shot down my father's Lancaster JA708. My intention is to use this information in my blog which can be seen here, http://wallyswar.wordpress.com/

I would like to know the identity of the second Lancaster shot down by Brunner on September 23rd 1943 at 2256 hours 8 km W of Koblenz.

I would also appreciate a photograph of Brunner himself and hopefully his aircraft flown that night, failing that a picture of an aircraft from his unit.

Clarification on whether he survived the war or not would be appreciated also.

With thanks, David.

[Nokose]

I looked in W.R. Chorley's book "Royal Air Force Bomber Command Losses of the Second World War 1943" and the raid on Mannheim for the night of the 23-24 Sep 1943 might be a "pin in the map type search". A lot of bombers going down at different locations and depending on the location used to ID the crash site it might be different then what is listed in the claim. Then there's the possibility that the second Lancaster survived damage and made it further before going down or even home.

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello guys, hello David,

As Josef Brunner was operating from Venlo airfield, my main subject of research for more than 25 years, I never trusted the locations given for Brunners claims in the claimlists of the Luftwaffenpersonalamt, Abteilung für Auszeichnungen und Disziplin, simply because Brunner must have went supersonic with his 2 engined Messerschmitt Bf110 to bridge the distance between 'Dürkheim' and 8 km W of Koblenz in just 6 minutes. Two options:
1) IF he was right about Dürkheim and wrong about Koblenz, he might have been in the general area of where Lancaster JA 708 crashed but
2) IF he was right about Koblenz and 'Dürkheim' was meant to be another location within the range of 6 minutes flying around Koblenz, Brunner could not have shot down Lancaster JA 708 between Hofstätten-Rinnthal which is at least 25 km SW of (Bad)Dürkheim.

I fully admit that I haven't looked further which Lancaster losses possibly could fit to Brunners claims, but will try to dig out my research notes from the past.

If it turns out that Brunner is nevertheless the nightfighter pilot which was responsible for shooting down Lancaster JA 708, I can provide a pretty good portrait photo of Brunner from my collection. As written above: I am not convinced yet...

All the best, Marcel Hogenhuis / Venlo
- airfield Venlo in WW-2
- He219 Project

[RodM]

Brunner's first claim on the night of 23-24/9/1943 (22.50 hrs) was at Bad Dürkheim, and the second claim (22.56 hrs) was 8 km south of Edenkoben.

It is most likely that his second victory was over your father's aircraft (JA708). Brunner's first victory was almost certainly over 103 Sqn Lancaster JB152, which crashed at Bad Dürkheim.

To the best of my knowledge, Brunner survived the war. I should have clarified in my previous post that the conflicting information on his have died during the war stems, IMHO, from an assumption that he must have lost his life after being posted missing in late March 1945 (as recorded in the war diary of Stab NJG6).

Cheers

Rod

[Johannes]

Hi David

Marcel has already covered the geographical descrepancies I was going to mention i.e Koblenz is 150km away from Hofstätten. There are several over pilots claiming around the same time, but Brunner seems the most likely, also a nightfighter at that time was restricted to a quadrant, so both claims would have been close together. There is almost a descrepancy over the altitude of the attack, your father states 16,000 feet, whereas Brunner gets his first at 5300 metres or about 17,400 feet, and the second at 3500 metres, thus Rod's theory about your fathers being the second claim would be at doubt, JB152 was caught before reaching the target, and with the few minutes time difference between the two claims I guess the same should be said for JA708.

Regards

Johannes

[Stig Jarlevik]

Johannes, Marcel, David

The main point in Rod's second answer is that he rules out Koblenz and instead insert Edenkoben. Edenkoben is much closer to Bad Dürkheim than Koblenz.

Rod
Since this is not what you (or rather Theo) say in your Nachjagd War Diaries vol 1, why have you changed your mind? Any new document that cancel out Koblenz or why is Edenkoben now on your list?

Cheers
Stig

[David Layne]

Marcel, Rod, Johannes and Stig many thanks for the replies to my thread, your input is greatly appreciated.

Marcel, not being too familiar with the geography of Germany I had not considered that the two actions I was enquiring about were further apart than 6 minutes flying time.

If we can substantiate that Brunner did shoot down JA708 I would certainly appreciate a photograph of him, and his or a similar aircraft.

Rod, my father's log book records a shoot down time of 2147 (UK time) this differs by just three minutes from the time of Brunner's first claim.
It would be interesting to know a little more about Brunner and I am pleased he survived the war.

Johannes, is it known where the quadrants were, and would Hofstatten and Koblenz have been in the same one? As far as altitudes are concerned I would suggest that a 1400 feet variation would be understandable, perhaps Brunner stated the altitude he commenced the attack and my father stated the height he realized the aircraft was lost. It would presumably been coming down very fast. My father was last out and on deploying his parachute got line stretch, an open canopy and landing.
JA708 was lost two minutes after bombing.



Stig, thanks for your points I am not familiar enough with the area to make a comment.


I have attached my father's log book entry. It was obviously filled in when he returned from P.O.W. camp.

Again, thanks for your help, David