![]() |
|
Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
![]() How many Luftwaffe fighter aces scored over 100 air to air kills over all fronts during World War II?
Edward L. Hsiao |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)
Depends on what you are really asking.
Do you mean mere victory claims? Or, are you asking about the real aircraft/verifiabale shot down by these pilots? |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)
Hi Edward
Less than we were led to believe, and it's not clear cut Ulrich Wohnert and Paul-Hinrich Dähne may very well have, but not sure. Those I am sure of ninety-five, with Grasser, Priller, Clausen, Miethig and Galland all on exactly "100". I found Bühligen to have several unconfirmed within his 112 that has always been claimed for him, actually I found nine unconfirmed for him, and ninety-nine confirmed(until 5th July 1944), but he may have claimed a few during 1945, but JG2 hardly claimed any after 1944. So my personal answer would be ninety-five, plus three maybes, and there is a chance that one or two more may just have in the last months of the war, but unlikely. Kind Regards Johannes |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)
Hi Edward
Sorry I forgot to add in Walther Dahl. TOCH has had a lot to talk about with him. His abschusselist has come to light of late, one would think is was fake, yet somehow I think it is genuine in itself, but possibly the information Dahl has on it is fake. His book published over fifty years ago indicates that he had 133 confirmed claims, yet the mikrofilms miss some thirteen of these, so in theory the total that HE claims is 120. Anyhow the confirmed "100" club are :- Hartmann 352 Barkhoen 300 Rall 274(Rall himself stated that the last was unconfirmed as he was hospitalised and didn't do paperwork) Kittel 266+ Nowotny 256 Batz 235(no USAAF claims were confirmed) Rudorffer 219 Bär 209 Weissenberger 208 Graf 206 Hafner 203 Lipfert 200 Krupinski 197 Philipp 193 Brendel 189 Stotz 183 Kirschner 181 Schuck 181(plus twenty-five unconfirmed, which he added to his total as per Hermann Goring's statement) Erhler 180+(he was very active during October 1944, but microfilm entries omitted for JG5) Hackl 180+(very active in last months of the war sfter mikrofilms cease, highest KBT paper mention is his 180th. Josten 178 Schack 174 Schmidt 173 Brändle 170 Lang 170 Steinhoff 168 Reinert 168 Ademeit 160 Wilcke 155 Marseille 152 Beisswenger 150 Düttmann 147 Tegtmeier 146 Gollob 145(his own document state that some of his "150" were unconfirmed) Wolf 142 Müller 140 Gratz 138 Trenkel 138 Müncheberg 135 Fonnekold 134(no Mustangs) Wolfrum 134 Setz 133 Schall 133 Dickfeld 132 Borchers 132 Lemke 131 Waldmann 131 Hoffmann 130 Eisenach 129 Oesau 127 Grislawski 127 or more likely 128 Webber 126 Hrabak 125 Ihlefeld 123 Zwernemann 123 Sturm 123+(but his rottenflieger states no where near what has been quoted in the past i.e 157/158) Weiss 122 Dorr 122(his own leistungsbuch lists 122 not 128) Ettel 121(a book of his letters home confirm exactly to the mikrofilms not previous 124) Leie 121 Marquardt 121 Tonne 120 Dahl 120 Schnaufer 119 Wiese 118 Wernicke 118 Birkner 116 Crinius 114 Obleser 112+(personally stated that his USAAF claims were not confirmed as he didn't witness actual crash-sites in each case) Beerenbrock 111 Lent 111 Lützow 109 Seiker 109 Korts 108 Sterr 108 Vechtel 108 Molders 107 Hahn 106 Bitsch 106 Schroer 106(staffelbord matches mikrofilms, and indicates several u/c not found on mikrofilms) Lucas 105 Bauer 104 Sachsenberg 104 Norz 104 Wurmheller 103 Dammers 103 Lambert 103(mostly missing from mikrofilms, however KBT papers list his last as his 103rd) Mayer 102+(there is one entry on the mikrofilms with only date and time listed missing from the daily microfilm entries, as Mayer was the ONLY person claiming for the Stab./JG2 at this era, it's probably him. Ostermann 102 Wernitz 101 Galland 100(claimed whilst banned from flying, thus no official claim submitted, then Nr.95-100 with jet) Miethig 100 Clausen 100 Priller 100 Grasser 100 With Beisswenger and Miethig each had an airbaloon counted, they are not aeroplanes, also with Düttmann, I didn't count tanks for 1945, he also had forty-five unconfirmed. Kind Regards Johannes P.S With some others mikrofilms don't bare-out their previously accepted totals, like von Fassong Ubben, Geisshardt, Woidich, Rademacher, Rollwage, Wachowiak and Tanzer. With Geisshardt and Woidich there own abschusseliste give total below "100", with Tanzer 43 is more likely....perhaps a typo. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)
Interesting info there, Johannes! Thanks for posting.
Couple comments: Gerhard Thyben was a notable no-show in the above list. In volume 4 of your "Luftwaffe Aces" series, you have him at 157. Have you since revised his tally, or was this just an error of omission? :-) I was expecting to see Kurt Bühligen pop up too, but then I checked volume 1 and saw that you have him as ineligible for the 100 club with his 99 victories... Just curious: You have Hartmann listed at his usual 352, but what would you consider his actual score to be? Regards and very happy holidays to all, Leon Venter |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)
I believe we should, and to an extent at least, can do better than making glib statements about aces' claiming accuracy without providing anything to back it up.
Here is what I have been able to find about Hartmann's opponents: Hartmann's known victims and overclaims: No.1, IL-2 on 5.11.42/1205 over PQ 44793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m: 7 GShAP, 4 VA. No further details known. No.3, LaGG-3 on 9.2.43/0655-0750 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m: 66 IAP lost St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev KIA this date (was this him?) No.4, Boston on 10.2.43/0615 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m: 63 BAP, 132 BAD, 5 VA.Crew of St. Serzhant Isatov, navigator of the crew, Andrei Yakovlevich Smolyar baled out POW, returned 1945 No. 7, P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA No.16, U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK) No.20, IL-2 on 5.7.43/0340 over Ugrim. 241 ShAP, no further details known No. 22, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement) No. 23, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement) No. 29, LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA No. 30: LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA No. 31, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore) No. 32, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore) No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA No. 52, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA No. 53, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA No. 78: La-5 on 15.8.43/1810 La-5 over Peretschepino (PQ 70762) (Sukhaya Kamenka) @ 3000m. No.3810123 of 5 GIAP, 207 IAD, 17 VA, Lt. Samoilenko safe. Plane damaged in combat with Bf109s, crashed due to lack of fuel and written off No. 89: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged No. 90: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged No. 94, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return No. 95, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return No. 96, "LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out) Nos. 98-100, 2 LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date Nos. 106 & 107, P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day No. 112, P-39 on 29.9.43/0855 over Zaporozhe (PQ 58682) @ 4000m: Probably Maj. Vladimir Grigorievich Semenishin HSU, 2 x OL, ORB and OPW 1st Class of 104 GIAP KIA No. 120, P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived Nos. 145 and 146. P-39s on 26.10.43, Novo Zaporozhe sector. 9 GIAP. Overclaiming, Kapitan Ivan Korolev returned safely with damage Nos. 163-165, P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded No. 192, P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss No. 193, P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely No. 194, P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time No. 195-199, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd) Nos. 200 & 201, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick) No. 202: 438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did No. 212-217, LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann 227. 30.05.1944 12:25 P-39 - possible - P-39 of 438 IAP, lt. K. V. Myaskov, baled out 228. 30.05.1944 15:38 P-39 - possible - P-39 of 508 IAP 229. 31.05.1944 19:05 P-39 - overclaim 230. 31.05.1944 19:08 P-39 - overclaim 231. 31.05.1944 19:13 P-39 - overclaim 232. 01.06.1944 12:31 LaGG - overclaim 233. 01.06.1944 12:38 LaGG - overclaim 234. 01.06.1944 15:20 LaGG - possible but unlikely - P-39 of 438 IAP, m. lt. N. T. Motuzko, MIA 235. 01.06.1944 15:30 LaGG - overclaim 236. 01.06.1944 15:32 P-39 - overclaim 237. 01.06.1944 15:35 P-39 - overclaim 238. 02.06.1944 18:10 P-39 - overclaim 239. 02.06.1944 18:15 P-39 - overclaim 240. 03.06.1944 14:30 P-39 - overclaim 241. 03.06.1944 14:33 P-39 - overclaim 242. 03.06.1944 15:00 LaGG - overclaim 243. 03.06.1944 17:17 LaGG - overclaim 244. 04.06.1944 16:10 P-39 - overclaim 245. 04.06.1944 16:25 LaGG - overclaim 246. 04.06.1944 18:13 P-39 - overclaim 247. 04.06.1944 18:23 P-39 - overclaim 248. 04.06.1944 18:53 P-39 - possible, damaged - P-39 of 16 GIAP, m. lt. G. G. Statsenko, slightly injured 249. 04.06.1944 19:15 P-39 - overclaim 250. 04.06.1944 19:18 P-39 - overclaim 251. 05.06.1944 14:12 P-39 - P-39 of 100 GIAP, m. lt. N. I. Zaytsev, survived (?) 252. 05.06.1944 14:19 P-39 - overclaim 253. 05.06.1944 16:15 LaGG - possible - La-5 of 240 IAP 254. 05.06.1944 19:07 LaGG - possible - La-5 of 240 IAP, m. lt. E. A. Karpov, survived 255. 05.06.1944 19:35 P-39 - overclaim 256. 05.06.1944 19:40 P-39 - overclaim 257. 06.06.1944 16:25 LaGG - overclaim 258. 06.06.1944 16:30 LaGG - overclaim 259. 06.06.1944 20:15 P-39 - possible but unlikely - P-39 of 438 IAP, m. lt. A. I. Sopin, survived 260. 06.06.1944 20:25 P-39 - overclaim 261. 06.06.1944 20:35 P-39 - overclaimNos 249 & 250, P-39s on 4.6.44: During 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both. They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed No. 264, P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: Day's only loss was 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well) Nos. 296, 299 & 300, P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA No. 304, Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: Previously thought to be 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut, now thought to be an overclaim…. No. 306, La-5 on 1.11.44/1435: Overclaiming. Only loss of an La-5 in Hartmann's area of operations this date is attributable to Hungarian pilot Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy No.307, Yak-7 on 7.11.44/1335 over PQ 98563 @ 1000m: Initially thought to be Possibly HQ of 13 GIAD, serial 32(292)14? Gv.Lt. Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. 6 Yaks at 1400m in the Lajosmizse area against 4 ‘Fw 190’s. Frontal attack, the Yak burst into flames. Pilot baled out WIA. Now thought to be an overclaim…. No. 309, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev No. 310 Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1415. Known to be an overclaim No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar No. 312, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1430. Known to be an overclaim Nos. 313 and 314, La5s on 14.11.44. Originally thought that these were likely claims for 39213519 of 92 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt. Sergei Alekseevich Matveev WIA. Day's only known loss of an La-5 but was lost at 1520hrs, to Flak and 2 x Fw190s (Soviet records) No. 315 Yak-9 on 16.11.44. Originally thought possibly 2015315 of 73 GIAP, 6 GIAD, 5 VA. Alexandr Stepanovich Shuvalov. Now believed to be an overclaim No.316 La-5 or Yak-9? on 16.11.44. If an La-5, was this Boris Vasilevich Zhigulenkov of 240 IAP, KIA? If a Yak-9 Possibly 2015315 of 73 GIAP, 6 GIAD, 5 VA. Alexandr Stepanovich Shuvalov No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: Overclaiming. 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA did indeed lose a Boston but it is attributable to Hungarian Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy. Csaba B Stenge states this was a "shared" kill No. 318, Yak-9 on 22.11.44/1140. Overclaiming, no Yak losses in this area No. 319, La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area Nos. 320 & 321, IL-2s on 22.11.45: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA). Two La-5s on 5.12.44: 486 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA lost 39212724 of Ml.Lt. Vladimir Grigorevich Snagovski MIA at 1155 local time over Ercsi, S of Budapest (was this it?) Two Yak-9s on 9.12.44: 150 GIAP lost 2329218 of Gv.Ml.Lt. Lev Gerasimovich Kamanyan crashlanded at 1450 local time after dogfight No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45: 2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)
Hi Nick,
Quote:
I've seen earlier incarnations of your list of Hartmann's opponents, and it's good to see that you've made much progress in fleshing it out. Based on the approx. 57 overclaims (at the very least) in your list alone, it appears that a generous estimate of Hartmann's score would be no more than 295. Thanks, Leon Venter |
#8
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)
Hello Johannes,
In one of the latest Avions mag, Philippe Saintes mention tallies slightly different to yours, so I let you know: - Wilhelm Balthasar, one more victory in Spain (07/02/1938 - I-16) and instead of an unconfirmed MS.406 he put a third confirmed Gladiator for 11/05/1940. - Otto Bertram, he quote as unconfirmed 3 of the spanish victories (07/09/1938 & 23/09/1939) and reduce from three to one victory over Bloch fighters on 03/06/1940 - Karl Heinz Koch, two more victories: 22/09/1943 - 13h15 - P-47 & 08/03/1944 - 11h00 - B-24 HSS - Franz-Josef Beerenbrock, for November 1942, three more unconfirmed (07/11/1942 - 07h42 - MiG-3 and two Pe-2 for 09/11/1942) and one more MiG-3 confirmed for 08/11/1942 |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)
If the plane was destroyed and the pilot baled out, did it count as a claim or an overclaim? Did a claim have to involve the pilot's death? (I hope not.)
|
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)
Quote:
But anyhow, the destruction of the aircraft is what mattered, regardless of the fate of the pilot. Five minutes of decent reading on the subject would've answered that for you. |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Luftwaffe losses in the east 20-30.01.1945 | AreKal | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 36 | 20th April 2021 15:28 |
Searching for Crashplaces around the City of Karlsruhe | Targa888 | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 13 | 17th July 2014 04:34 |
Air war over North Africa | Christer Bergström | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 13 | 3rd November 2013 01:34 |
Normandy a bit more difficult | RT | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 8 | 16th December 2008 23:24 |
Air Gunner lucky kills !!!! | Jon | Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces | 0 | 22nd March 2005 21:41 |