German night fighter top aces by plane

[Russ Fahey]

Hello Michael,

The listing of Krause as top scorer with the Do-217 is probably not correct.
The top scorer in this type is more likely Rudolf Schoenert. He made at least 27 of his 65 total claims with the Do-217. 25 of these night victories were scored in Russia with I/NJG 100,while the other 2 were acheived in the west.
I hope this helps clarify the issue.

Russ

(Source:Richter FB- Richter flew as BF to Schoenert.)

[knusel]

Good morning Mikael, Michel & Russ,

thanks for your posts.
Can you tell me when Gildner started flying the Do 215 ?

Cheers,

Michael

[PMoz99]

Originally Posted by Russ Fahey

Hello Michael,


The top scorer in this type is more likely Rudolf Schoenert. He made at least 27 of his 65 total claims with the Do-217.

Russ

(Source:Richter FB- Richter flew as BF to Schoenert.)

Russ - does the FB indicate which version of Do217 he flew? I know the unit had both J's and N's (N-1 I assume).
Thanks
Peter

[Nick Hector]

But let's (...for once...) not miss that there are some threats to Schoenert's validity as a place-getter in any list of "top night fighter aces"

4.8.41/0014 he claimed a Wellington: X9760 of 75 sqn
(damaged, not actually a full victory)

31.10.41/2137 and 2205 he claimed 2 x Halifaxes
Night's only Halifax loss was L9602/MP-N of 76 sqn. F/S Charles Stuart O'Brien RCAF and crew all KIA. Lost without trace
(so he double-claimed or at least misidentified)

26.4.42/0024 he claimed a Wellington
It's not been identified thus far and may be an overclaim

21.4.43/0223 he claimed a Lancaster
It's not been identified thus far and may be an overclaim

1.8.43/0223 he claimed a Halifax
It's not been identified thus far and may be an overclaim

All other Western Front claims appear to be legitimate victories and to date, I have little info on his Eastern Front opponents but can provide what I do have if requested

...All of these instances must surely reduce his tally of REAL aircraft destroyed and if we fail to take that into account, then all we are really doing is gormlessly gawping at names with victory tallies beside them....

SOURCES: Boiten's NACHTJAGD War Diaries vol 1, Chorley's Bomber Command Losses 1941, 1942 and 1943 volumes, Commonwealth War Graves Commission Website

[PMoz99]

But let's (...for once ...) give a guy the benefit of the doubt.
Apart from the first claim you mention, which can be put down to an honest mistake, you've proven nothing except the relevant records can't be found.
Start ridiculing the numbers when you can PROVE otherwise. Sure, we can maybe suspect in some cases, but that doesn't get anyone convicted.
I'd hate to see you as a Judge.
Peter

[Nick Hector]

I'd say the first two, actually, Peter.

Given that for decades people have just sat and stared at German victory claims knowing nothing better than

Hartmann - 352 - Wow!
Barkhorn - 301 - Awesome!
Rall - 275 - Fantastic!

Perhaps save some pennies and avail yourself of some of the better books that are out there - A History of the Mediterranean Air War by Shores et al, Bergstroem's Black Cross + Red Star series, Fighter Command Losses by Franks, Bomber Command Losses by Chorley....

We don't need to accept victories and tallies with infinite validity anymore, we can now properly respect who the guy in the other aircraft was, name him and remember him. It's not the 1960s anymore, why should the forum be held back by people who don't realise this....?

[Stig1207]

Agree with Nick. That the pilots back then over claimed, often extravagantly, can no longer come as a surprise.

I look at the 'numbers' the various aces are credited with as an indication of this being a very good or excellent fighter pilot; well-knowing that the actual score is likely to be lower, often much lower.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by PMoz99

you've proven nothing except the relevant records can't be found.
Start ridiculing the numbers when you can PROVE otherwise
Peter

Sorry Peter but the numbers are the thing that must be proved. Historians are supposed to work on the basis of evidence, as much of it as they can find, and there is clear evdience that, overall, claims in aerial combat are far higher than documented losses. If follows that not everyone got what he said/thought he did and the relatively few "aces" who accounted for the bulk of the aircraft shot down are likely to have been wrong quite often — humans may even tell lies sometimes, or so I've heard. One can reasonably question the totals credited to Hartmann, Johnson, Sakai, Bong, Kozhedub et al and still recognise that they were extraordinarily successful pilots.

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Sorry Peter but the numbers are the thing that must be proved. Historians are supposed to work on the basis of evidence, as much of it as they can find, and there is clear evdience that, overall, claims in aerial combat are far higher than documented losses. If follows that not everyone got what he said/thought he did and the relatively few "aces" who accounted for the bulk of the aircraft shot down are likely to have been wrong quite often — humans may even tell lies sometimes, or so I've heard. One can reasonably question the totals credited to Hartmann, Johnson, Sakia, Bong, Kozhedub et al and still recognise that they were extraordinarily successful pilots.

Perhaps the message to Peter is:
It's not always about RIDICULING the numbers (...certainly not what I am here to do...)
It's about being careful not to unquestioningly ACCEPT the numbers without checking.

What should we do? Rejoice that we now have the chance to check by comparing archival sources...

....Or keep quoting the cheap, pulpy, hagiographic, plagiarised sources that we have been told time and time and time and time and time again not to quote as if they're the greatest thing ever written on the subject...?

It's not something we need to do any more unless we are fanboys that just ever so desperately need to cling to our boyhood heroes. Some pilots claimed with astonishing accuracy (refer you to threads discussing Lipfert elsewhere on this forum) and others with astonishing inaccuracy (refer you to where Hartmann is discussed - sometimes in the self-same threads....)

And to put my money where my mouth is...

...We couldn't have done this a couple of short decades ago:

Wolfgang Lippert

SPAIN
1st Claim
15.7.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") Algar
Day's losses include Felipe Cirujeda Esteve of 1a Esc, Grupo 26; Jose Redondo of 1a Esc apparently by collision with Bf109; one I-15 lost to a collision with an I-16 (pilot of I-16 named Pastor)

2nd Claim
23.7.38 I-16 "Rata"
From 17.7.38 to 23.7.38 there were nine I-16s lost and seven I-15s

3rd Claim
14.8.38 I-16 "Rata" Probably an aircraft of Grupo 21

4th Claim
4.10.38 I-16 "Rata" Grupo 21. 6a Esc definitely involved in the day’s combats

5th claim
29.12.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") Lerida
At least one I-16 lost this date, pilot named Diaz. Don’t know if there were any actual I-15 losses…

WORLD WAR TWO
6th claim
30.9.39/1445 MS 406 Buedingen/Bischmisheim/S of Guedingen
GC III/3. Two claims for the aircraft of Lt. Patroux WIA, aircraft written off (slight overclaiming, also claimed by Erich Kuhlmann)

7th claim
7.4.40/1250 Hurricane ("Spitfire")
SW of Diedenhofen 73 sqn. F/O G F Brotchie baled out slightly WIA

8th claim
10.5.40/1355 Curtiss Hawk
SE of Metz
Losses include No. 26 of GC I/5, Sgt. Preux forcelanded, 2 others from same unit damaged (return fire). GC II/4 lost SLt. Trixier-Vignancourt (damaged Bf110),Sgt. Antoine De La Chapelle (He111?) and Ballin (attributed to a Bf110)

9th claim
14.5.40/1930 Wellington Sedan
AASF or BEF Air Component/Bomber command (probably a misidentified Blenheim)

10th claim
15.5.40/1613 MB 152 ("MB 151")
S of Charleville No. 189 of GC 3/1. Adj-Chef R Autier KIA

11th claim
20.5.40/1835 Curtiss Hawk Noyon
Day's Hawk losses include No. 38 of GC II/4, Capt. Malaval struck the ground evading Bf109s and Sgt. Forzy in No. 86 of GC I/5 (I/4?), POW (This one is said to be Forzy)

12th claim
3.6.40/1420 MB 152 (Somehow mistaken for a "Spitfire")
S of Paris Serial unknown of GC II/1. Sgt. Guitard baled out badly WIA

13th claim
9.6.40/1450 Curtiss Hawk Proult
No. 218 of GC II/4. S/Lt. Camille Plubeau baled out WIA (burnt)

14th claim
16.8.40/1900 Spitfire I
Probably 234 sqn. Four losses: R6967 of F/O K S Dewhurst baled out safely, X4016 of F/O F H P Conner baled out safely and rescued by Royal Navy launch, N3242 was damaged (pilot not known) and R6896 was also damaged, F/L Paterson Clarence Hughes (Australian) unhurt

15th claim
26.8.40/1735 Spitfire
Portsmouth area
Another claim for X4187 of 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn? F/O C Hector Maclean crashlanded WIA (overclaiming). Or 234 sqn, two losses: X4023 of P/O P W Horten bellylanded safely and P9494 of Sgt. M C B Boddington forcelanded

16th claim
2.9.40/0855 Hurricane I Possibly V7352 of 249 sqn. P/O R E N E Wynn WIA, aircraft only damaged

17th claim
7.9.40/1905 Spitfire London
603 "City of Edinburgh" sqn: P9467 of Sgt. A R Sarre baled out WIA over Thames Estuary at 1739 BT, L1057 of P/O A Peter Pease bellylanded safely, X4250/XT-X of S/L George L Denholm forcelanded safely, N3196 of P/O Basil George "Stapme" Stapleton forcelanded safely

18th claim
17.9.40/1648 Maidstone
607 sqn, 501 sqn or 1 sqn RCAF? 607 sqn, 2 losses: P3933 of Sgt. John Lansdell, KIA and P3929 of P/O G H Welford WIA and bellylanded at Tuesnoad farm (both generally attributed to Neumann) 501 sqn, 2 losses: V7357 of Sgt. J H "Ginger" Lacey baled out safely and P3820 of Sgt. Edward J Egan, MIA-KIA (over Ashford according to British sources). 1 sqn RCAF lost P3080 of F/O A D Nesbitt baled out WIA and P3876 of F/O R Smither KIA in combat over Tunbridge

19th and 20th claims
25.10.40/1305 and 1306 2 x Hurricanes London
249 sqn. 2 losses: P3615 of Sgt. J M B Heard baled out WIA and V7409 of Adj. H Boquillard (Free French) forcelanded WIA

21st claim
1.11.40/0940 (0820 BT) Hurricane I Canterbury V6879 of 605 sqn. S/L Archibald Ashmore McKellar DSO DFC and Bar KIA

22nd and 23rd claims
22.6.41/0415 and 0418 MiG ("I-17") and I-15
NE of Wizna/S of Knysyyn
129 IAP, 9 SAD known to have been in action against II/JG 27 this day. Losses include Ml.Lts. N F Erchenko and A A Radugin.
NOTE: At least one source says the second victory was an unconfirmed claim for an SB-3

24th claim
25.6.41/1215 SB (mistaken for a "DB-3")
3 AE, 128 SBAP, 2 losses. Lt Koshelev – St. Leytenant Polishchuk – Ml. Serzhant Rakov and Leytenant Bakhvalov –Serzhant Alekseev (the other was claimed by Alfred Heidel)

25th claim
23.10.41/0930 Hurricane II S of Buqbuq
This one said to be BD829 of 1 sqn SAAF, Lt. K M McKenzie baled out WIA. Z2314 was also brought down, 2/Lt. W S Milner bellylanded WIA (appears to be unclaimed)

26th claim
22.11.41/1020 P-40 Tomahawk IIB
SE of Ain el Gazala
3 sqn, RAAF losses include P/O Eric Hall Lane KIA in AM378/A(?), F/L John Henry William Saunders in AN416 and F/O Malcolm Hector Watson in AK510. (Schneider and Redlich also claimed)

27th claim
22.11.41/1630 P-40 Tomahawk IIB
NW of Bir Hacheim
3 sqn RAAF and 112 sqn. 112 lost Sgt. Henry George Burney, RAAF in AM390/GA-W (returned). 3 lost Sgt. Ronald Henry Simes in AM507/Z also returned whilst F/L Lindsay Eric Shaw Knowles AN410 , F/O William Kloster in AK390 and P/O Lawton "Sammy" Lees AN305/E(?) were all KIA as was F/O F Fischer in AK407. F/O H G Roberts in AN373 POW

28th claim
22.11.41/1645 Wellington IC
NW of Bir Hacheim
109 sqn, one lost: X9988 of Sgt R E Nicholson and crew all KIA, plus another damaged

29th claim
23.11.41/1225 Hurricane S of Bir Hacheim RNFS. Possibly overclaiming, 1 loss at this time: V7308 SubLt. Anthony John Claude Willis KIA. However, one of these could have been a P-40 of 250 sqn, Sgt. Donald Mair Palethorpe RCAF KIA or S/L Morris damaged (Edu Neumann claimed at the same time)

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Michel

Many thanks for posting the information regarding the identity of the Lancaster claimed by Schönert on 21 April 1943. However, it may be that this aircraft was Lancaster I (W4956) "UV-J" of 460 Sqn, RAAF flown by F/Sgt WF Pridgeon, all killed, as the unit lost three aircraft that night (according to Strike and Return by Firkins) and this is the closest match to the serial you provided. Any comments or corrections are appreciated!

Horrido!

Leo