German night fighter top aces by plane

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Russ Fahey

Hello Michael,

The listing of Krause as top scorer with the Do-217 is probably not correct.
The top scorer in this type is more likely Rudolf Schoenert. He made at least 27 of his 65 total claims with the Do-217. 25 of these night victories were scored in Russia with I/NJG 100,while the other 2 were acheived in the west.
I hope this helps clarify the issue.

Russ

(Source:Richter FB- Richter flew as BF to Schoenert.)

Dear Russ,

thanks for your figures which fit well: 25 NJG100 kills in a Do 217, 6 NJG100 kills in a Ju 88.
Can you tell me which two of Schoenert's Western Front kills were scored in a Do 217 ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

[Russ Fahey]

Originally Posted by knusel

Dear Russ,

thanks for your figures which fit well: 25 NJG100 kills in a Do 217, 6 NJG100 kills in a Ju 88.
Can you tell me which two of Schoenert's Western Front kills were scored in a Do 217 ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Hello Michael,

Schoenert's 1st claim in the West using the Do-217 was against a Lancaster on March 30, 1943 @ 0130 in the Mecklenberg area.

His 2nd claim using the Do-217 was on April 22, 1943 against a Lancaster @0223 in the Meckleberg area.

In both cases Schoenert/Richter were flying Do-217 "C9+CC".

Russ

[knusel]

Dear Russ,

thanks for your very valuable info.

This is my updated list of the top nightfighter aces by type:

• Bf 110: Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer, 121 night kills in that type
• Ju 88: Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstein, likely 83 night kills in that type
• He 219: Ernst-Wilhelm Modrow, 33 night kills in that type according to forum member Szymon (Gizmo)
• Do 217: Rudolf Schoenert, 27 night kills in that type according to info provided by Russ
• Me 262: Kurt Welter (dubious score): 25 night kills in that type
• Bf 109: Kurt Welter: 23 night kills in that type
• Fw 190: Friedrich-Karl Müller: 19-22 night kills in that type
• Do 215: Ludwig Becker: 19 night kills in that type according to Mikael Olrog's book
• He 111: Günther Bertram: 14 night kills in that type
• Me 410: Johann Trenke: 12 night kills in that type

Did Wittgenstein ever score in another plane type than the Ju 88 ?

Michael

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by knusel

Dear Russ,

thanks for your very valuable info.

This is my updated list of the top nightfighter aces by type:

• Bf 110: Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer, 121 night kills in that type
• Ju 88: Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstein, likely 83 night kills in that type
• He 219: Ernst-Wilhelm Modrow, 33 night kills in that type according to forum member Szymon (Gizmo)
• Do 217: Rudolf Schoenert, 27 night kills in that type according to info provided by Russ
• Me 262: Kurt Welter (dubious score): 25 night kills in that type
• Bf 109: Kurt Welter: 23 night kills in that type
• Fw 190: Friedrich-Karl Müller: 19-22 night kills in that type
• Do 215: Ludwig Becker: 19 night kills in that type according to Mikael Olrog's book
• He 111: Günther Bertram: 14 night kills in that type
• Me 410: Johann Trenke: 12 night kills in that type

Did Wittgenstein ever score in another plane type than the Ju 88 ?

Michael

p.152 of Werner Held and Holger Nauroth's The Night Fighters (a photo album basically...) shows a Bf 110 belly-landed near Venlo airfield, attributed to Wittgenstein, so weak argument that it is, there is at least that much evidence that he flew at least some sorties in that type. You will likely need to consult archival material or Flugbuecher to determine the answer to your question. It has to be acknowledged that he was a very accurate claimer

[PMoz99]

The photo Nick refers to is captioned as being taken at the end of 1943. At that time Wittgenstein was probably still Kdr II./NJG3, which had a mixture of Bf110, Ju88, Do217 and even a Me210 or 2. Other units he served with also had a mixture of aircraft available, so it is quite possible he did score in types other than just Ju88. Because of the mixture of available aircraft, even knowing the dates of his claims won't help. So without logbooks ......
Note Wiki has a list of his victories.
Note also the Wiki article states W never flew a Bf110 after June 1943 (cites references) but it is unclear whether he flew one operationally before then.
I never realised he flew 150 bomber combat missions before transferring to night fighters.
Cheers
Peter

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by PMoz99

The photo Nick refers to is captioned as being taken at the end of 1943. At that time Wittgenstein was probably still Kdr II./NJG3, which had a mixture of Bf110, Ju88, Do217 and even a Me210 or 2. Other units he served with also had a mixture of aircraft available, so it is quite possible he did score in types other than just Ju88. Because of the mixture of available aircraft, even knowing the dates of his claims won't help. So without logbooks ......
Note Wiki has a list of his victories.
Note also the Wiki article states W never flew a Bf110 after June 1943 (cites references) but it is unclear whether he flew one operationally before then.
I never realised he flew 150 bomber combat missions before transferring to night fighters.
Cheers
Peter

Even for a first-year uni student, quoting Wikipedia is tantamount to telling an essay or assignment marker "I don't care if I fail this subject, nay, I pretty much hope that I will..." It is a beyond-laughable source for anyone calling themself a scientist to quote.

The best use for Wikipedia is to follow up the sources that they quote, in this instance: Mathews and Foreman, and quote THAT. You should at least be checking for discrepancies between Wiki and the source material, as a bare minimum. Otherwise, where's your right to use words like "meticulously", "painstakingly", "thoroughly" etc. when describing your research project?

Given that Mathews and Foreman is widely available at a reasonable price and not some obscure out-of-print source, that much effort and expense should not be beyond a serious researcher. Otherwise, how much effort are you really making and what does posting on the forum really represent? A statement that you have "meticulously, painstakingly and thoroughly" googled (...for all of 0.57 seconds....) and still need to rely on the "Answer Fairies" to do your research for you because you have not spent any substantial amount of your own money on a reputable source, nor any substantial amount of your own time, effort and expense on archival research and have nothing worthwhile to exchange with those who have.....

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by PMoz99

The photo Nick refers to is captioned as being taken at the end of 1943. At that time Wittgenstein was probably still Kdr II./NJG3, which had a mixture of Bf110, Ju88, Do217 and even a Me210 or 2. Other units he served with also had a mixture of aircraft available, so it is quite possible he did score in types other than just Ju88. Because of the mixture of available aircraft, even knowing the dates of his claims won't help. So without logbooks ......
Note Wiki has a list of his victories.
Note also the Wiki article states W never flew a Bf110 after June 1943 (cites references) but it is unclear whether he flew one operationally before then.
I never realised he flew 150 bomber combat missions before transferring to night fighters.
Cheers
Peter

These are the victories Wittgenstein claimed in the final months of 1943,

18.10.43/2035 Lancaster ("Viermot") Hanover @ 6200m Bomber Command. (Note that this night's raid was an all-Lancaster affair, there were 18 Lancasters lost = 5.0% of the attacking force, versus 20 German victory claims, so at least 2 victory claims are not valid)

22.10.43/2110 Halifax V ("Viermot") 10-20km NNW of Kassel @ 4000m Probably LK664/MP-U of 76 sqn. Lt. L E Hulthin RNAF and crew all KIA

22.10.43/2135 Viermot Frankfurt (Tony Wood) or Paderborn (Boiten) @ 6100m. Bomber Command, 43 losses of 25 Lancasters and 18 Halifaxes (7.6%) versus 54 German victory claims, so at least 9 victory claims are not valid.


So if he claimed a victory at all in the Me110, it would be one of these, provided Werner Held's dating of the photo is correct (end of 1943)

Sources:
Nachtjagd War Diaries vol 1 by Boiten
Tony Wood lists
Bomber Command War Diaries by Middlebrook and Everitt