Subordinates' opinions of Hans Dortenmann;

[leonventer]

Originally Posted by matthias74

Trying do correlate pilots' physique to their personalities, and to some extent to their "success potential", seems, well, "Third Reichish".

I agree that it's off-putting. Skawran makes an unreasonably strong correlation between the physical and psychological attributes of fighter pilots. His characterisations are simplistic and he's guilty of some gross stereotyping. There are also some conspicuous omissions in his coverage, e.g. he comments on the role of religion, but he says nothing about the extent of the pilots' adherence to Nazi ideology. This implies that he considers it to be either:

a) the same for all pilots, or
b) unimportant, or
c) taboo.

Whatever the reason for his silence, the book would have been more interesting and valuable if it had discussed this topic.

Nevertheless, as Matthias said, the book is worth reading because of Skawran's intimate familiarity with the pilots and the context in which they served.

Leon Venter

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by leonventer

he says nothing about the extent of the pilots' adherence to Nazi ideology.

..because at a certain level (ie a high ranking & decorated fighter pilot) it was a given surely?...

..I found the book worth looking at and certainly German authors tend to pick out anecdotes from it (Prien on Oesau, Kurowski on Marseille etc etc..)

but otherwise as a text on Luftwaffe fighter aces it is unreadable..

[kennethklee]

I'm a little late to the discussion but wanted to comment on this interesting topic. Somewhat fortuitously I just read Axel Urbanke's Green Hearts First in Combat with the Dora 9. As those who have read this fine book know, Urbanke interviewed many surviving members of III/JG 54 and JG 26 and cited extensively from Dortenmann's diary. Many of the surviving pilots comment favorably on Dortenmann and his abilities as a fighter pilot and a formation leader, and that he looked out for the pilots under his command. In fact, I did not recall reading any quotes that were less than favorable for Dortenmann. Although Dortenmann was an aggressive fighter pilot and did not hesitate to engage the enemy, the welfare of his men seemed to take priority. One pilot is quoted stating that Dortenmann never lost a wingman while scoring a victory. I did not recall any quotes from his pilots suggesting that Dortenmann had the neck itch for the Knight's Cross. A lively party is briefly described as occurring spontaneously when Dortenmann encountered some of his former pilots from IV/JG 26, suggesting Dortenmann was held in high regard by his pilots, which would be unlikely if Dortenmann put any ambitions for decorations and advancement ahead of his men. Since Dortenmann passed in 1973, no motive for hiding unfavorable facts or opinions should be present for any of Dortenmann's surviving contemporaries.

Dortenmann's diary quotes often describe his affinity for his pilots from IV/JG 26, and his regrets at leaving them when he transferred to I/JG 26. A fellow officer, Lt. Hans Prager, describes in detail the aftermath when his Fw 190D-9 was severely damaged by collision with a P-47 and that Dortenmann took charge of guiding Prager home to a safe landing; he provided radio advice and reassurance and checked out the landing field ahead of him. When Dortenmann finally received his Knight's Cross in late April 1945, the pilots of his former Staffel 14/JG 26 are described as happy for him because he never scored his victories at the expense of his men, but because he was a very skilled pilot and leader.

Although this is only one book, it appears to be well-researched and documented, especially with regards to interviews with surviving pilots and use of logbooks (i.e., Dortenmann) and therefore very credible to me. In summary, the Green Hearts book left me with the impression that Hans Dortenmann was a very skilled fighter pilot and leader who took his leadership duties seriously and put his men first.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by kennethklee

I'm a little late to the discussion but wanted to comment on this interesting topic. Somewhat fortuitously I just read Axel Urbanke's Green Hearts First in Combat with the Dora 9. As those who have read this fine book know, Urbanke interviewed many surviving members of III/JG 54 and JG 26 and cited extensively from Dortenmann's diary. Many of the surviving pilots comment favorably on Dortenmann and his abilities as a fighter pilot and a formation leader, and that he looked out for the pilots under his command. In fact, I did not recall reading any quotes that were less than favorable for Dortenmann. Although Dortenmann was an aggressive fighter pilot and did not hesitate to engage the enemy, the welfare of his men seemed to take priority. One pilot is quoted stating that Dortenmann never lost a wingman while scoring a victory. I did not recall any quotes from his pilots suggesting that Dortenmann had the neck itch for the Knight's Cross. A lively party is briefly described as occurring spontaneously when Dortenmann encountered some of his former pilots from IV/JG 26, suggesting Dortenmann was held in high regard by his pilots, which would be unlikely if Dortenmann put any ambitions for decorations and advancement ahead of his men. Since Dortenmann passed in 1973, no motive for hiding unfavorable facts or opinions should be present for none of Dortenmann's surviving contemporaries.

Dortenmann's diary quotes often describe his affinity for his pilots from IV/JG 26, and his regrets at leaving them when he transferred to I/JG 26. A fellow officer, Lt. Hans Prager, describes in detail the aftermath when his Fw 190D-9 was severely damaged by collision with a P-47 and that Dortenmann took charge of guiding Prager home to a safe landing; he provided radio advice and reassurance and checked out the landing field ahead of him. When Dortenmann finally received his Knight's Cross in late April 1945, the pilots of his former Staffel 14/JG 26 are described as happy for him because he never scored his victories at the expense of his men, but because he was a very skilled pilot and leader.

Although this is only one book, it appears to be well-researched and documented, especially with regards to interviews with surviving pilots and use of logbooks (i.e., Dortenmann) and therefore very credible to me. In summary, the Green Hearts book left me with the impression that Hans Dortenmann was a very skilled fighter pilot and leader who took his leadership duties seriously and put his men first.

No doubt then, Dortenmann was Eager for combat AND a skilled AND careful pilot...thanks for the Feedback;

nickm

[kennethklee]

Originally Posted by NickM

No doubt then, Dortenmann was Eager for combat AND a skilled AND careful pilot...thanks for the Feedback;

nickm

Nick-

I enjoyed the opportunity to discuss Dortenmann and his relationship to his pilots. I do not have Don Caldwell's JG 26 books (Top Guns and War Diary Vol 1 and Vol 2) at hand at the moment, but I also recall that he made a comment about Dortenmann's ambitions for the Knight's Cross. I was thinking about the lack of any such opinion expressed by Axel Urbanke in his Green Hearts book. IIRC, unlike Urbanke, Caldwell did not back up his assertion with any quotes from Dortenmann's former colleagues and subordinates or citations from Dortenmann's diary. (If my recollections are wrong about Caldwell's books, I stand humbly corrected and apologetic.) I also am loathe to believe that the former pilots would comment about Dortenmann's alleged Knight's Cross ambition to Caldwell, but not Urbanke. I would imagine that his pilots would have sensed quickly if Dortenmann put his ambitions above his men. Military literature is replete with commanders who lost the trust and respect of their subordinates for this. Subordinates who dislike their supervisors are usually not reticent about telling people, especially authors or interviewers for other media.

The fact that, in Green Hearts, so many quotes from former pilots regarding Dortenmann are almost uniformly favorable and Dortenmann's own diary entries suggest good relationships with his men, coupled with Caldwell's lack of specific quotes even from pilots labeled as anonymous or from Dortenmann's diary, suggest to me that Dortenmann was "clean" and a skilled and responsible leader, as well as a talented fighter pilot. No disrespect to Caldwell intended--I greatly respect his published work on JG 26--I'm just drawing conclusions based on the evidence. Now, of course, if Urbanke conspired to hide Dortenmann's flaws, all bets are off...but I'll stop there .

Kenneth