Seeking Staffel for I.(Z)/LG1 Bf110C crew loss 4.10.39

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Have just acquired a photo of this October 4, 1939 crash:

I.(Z)/LG1 Messerschmitt Bf110C-1. Flew into ferry-boat cable and crashed in the River Main while low-flying near Grossheubach, north of Miltenberg. (Ff) Oberlt Heinz Höhler and (Bf) Uffz Ernst Krenz both killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.

The circumstances are very similar to a 13 Staffel loss "in December" described in von Eimannsberger's book on V.(Z)/LG1, P. 17, but with an entirely different crew (FF Fw Stern, BF Walther Tietz).

In the EOE DB we carry:

16 December 1939: 13.(Z)/LG1 Messerschmitt Bf110C-1. Crashed into a mountain and burned out at Luisterberg, near Springen, flying through low cloud. (Ff) Fw Gerhard Stern and (Bf) Uffz Walther Tietz killed. (Note: Neither found in VDK) Aircraft 100% write-off.

Has vE.'s source scrambled these two losses and their crews, and entirely omitted the Oct. loss? The Höhler/Krenz crew is not mentioned in the index of unit crews, nor in the index to the book.

Can anyone supply the Staffel to which the 4 October Bf110/crew that crashed was assigned, or provide any other info/photos about these two crashes?

Thanx,

[Matti Salonen]

October 4, 1939 crash was of 14.(Z)/LG 1 according to NVM.

I have no loss on 16 December 1939 or even near that date. Also I have no info on Fw Gerhard Stern and Walther Tietz. Could there be a mix-up with Uffz Walter Titzek, who was MIA on 16 October 1939 8 km westlich Alsey (Saarg.)?

Matti

[Larry Hickey]

Matti,

Thanks for the info on the 4.10.39 crash. Puts a Staffel to the casualties and the photo of the crash. I'm going to leave it to Peter Cornwell, who is our lead DB loss researcher and maintains the EOE loss data bases, to comment on the 16 December 1939 incident.

Does anyone else have any photos of a badly smashed Bf110 on a riverbank with 1939-style fuselage crosses and a tail-centered swastica in their collection? It looks possible that the a/c codes could be read on the rear fuselage wreckage, but I know that this is a long shot. It should read L1+?K.

Regards,

[Peter Cornwell]

Gentlemen,

Have finally got around to this query following modem failure, illness, and prolonged Christmas festivities - my apologies for the delay. It does seem clear that there has been some confusion in interpreting these early losses to V.(Z)/LG1 but I am satisfied that the photo lately acquired by Larry indeed relates to the following casualty:

4 October 1939: 14.(Z)/LG1 Messerschmitt Bf110C-1. Flew into ferry-boat cable and crashed in the River Main while low-flying near Grossheubach, north of Miltenberg. FF Oberlt Heinz Höhler and BF Uffz Ernst Krenz both killed. Aircraft 100% write-off. (EOE photo & TOCH 12/10)

Thanks to Matti Salonen we can now be reasonably sure of the following:

16 October 1939: 13.(Z)/LG1 Messerschmitt Bf110C-1. Abandoned 8 km west of Alzey after port engine caught fire and crashed near Nieder-Wiesen. FF Oberlt Joachim Glienke baled out landing injured, BF Uffz Walter Titzck killed. Aircraft 100% write-off.
After the Polish Campaign, V.(Z)/LG1 had transferred to Würzburg on October 4 for operations over the western front.

The reference to a further loss on 16 December 1939 cannot be further substantiated and, given its similarities and likely confusion with the 16 October loss, this has been deleted from our database.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys

I have just one problem and that is with the unit itself. Taghon places the date of I.(Z)/LG 1 to V.(Z)/LG 1 on Nov 1st 1939, ie the same date when the new bomber group was formed.
From this discussion it seems the true date is earlier, perhaps already on October 1st. Can this be pinpointed exactly and why is Taghon one month off side?

Cheers
Stig
PS: Thanks for the detective work

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

I've queried Peter Taghon to see if he has any input on the revisions to the (V)/LG1 losses in the last quarter of 1939. Will post the conclusions, if different from above.

Regards,