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  #1  
Old 20th December 2010, 17:14
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Reading some materials concerning losses of KG 51 (15-19 Ju 88 A-5s), I think (maybe wrong), that this unit mostly had operated over Tarnopol, Stanislavov area, not so far on the north, and had not done bombing attaks on airfields around Lvov.

Mostly the unit's losses are conected with the attack on Kurovitce airfiled (base of 164. IAP, 66. SzAP of. 15. SAD near Lvov), but there were no attacks done by KG 51, but the last one did them more on the south, as on territory of airfieled 64. IAD fighter regiments.

I think, that KG 51 losses could be more atributed to the fighter attacks of 12. IAP and 149. IAP of 64. IAD, then to above 1-st units.

There is a report of 64. IAD, where are mentioned about 12 airmen captured on 22.06.41 (so it could be captured some crews of KG 51).

Maybe someone have some detail about targets of KG 51 on the morning of 22.06.41, then could be clear: Lvov area or Stanislavov, Tarnopol?


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mirekw
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Old 20th December 2010, 19:57
Reiner Reiner is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Hallo Mirek!

Die III./K.G.51 hatte am 22.6.1941 den Auftrag, russische Flugplätze im Tiefflug mit SD2 anzugreifen. Diese Flugplätze lagen südlich von Lemberg, bei Stryj, bei Buczacz und bei Tarnopol. Mit Bordwaffen und restlichen Bomben sollten Kolonnen und Militärlager bekämpft werden.

Rene
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Old 20th December 2010, 22:56
thenelm thenelm is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 7076, Klopsch, Fw. Günter, , KG 51, , 8., , 9K+DS, VK+VD, , MIA, cause unknown. B & Bs also MIA, Bf KIA., B Fw. Ludwig Wiedemann, Bf Gefr. Karl Schote & Bs Uffz. Josef Steinbach, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 5178, Sommer, Fw. Heinz, , KG 51, , 9., gelbe A, 9K+AT, KC+GO, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., Bo Uffz. Wolfgang Bölke, Bf Uffz. Richard Frank & Bs Gefr. Anton Brauchstetter, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, (Büchow), 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 8259, Ungericht, Fw. Alfred, , KG 51, , 9., gelbe L, 9K+LT, DL+EI, , MIA with crew, cause unknown., Bo Uffz. Kurt Küster, Bf Gefr. Werner Jakobs & Bs Gefr. Paul Hase, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , (Stryj), 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 6229?, Deisinger, Ofw. Raimund, , KG 51, , 7., weiße F, 9K+FR, KB+SD?, , KIA, cause unknown. Rest of crew MIA., Bo Ofw. Georg Maier, Bf Fw. Johann Wagner & Bs Uffz. Hans Buckenmeyer, WNr. is dup with earlier loss., Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Tarnopol, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 6318, Alder, Ltn. Emanuel, , KG 51, , 9., gelbe D, 9K+DT, , , MIA with crew, cause unknown., Bo Ofw. Ludwig Müller, Bf Ofw. Josef Dorr & Bs Fw. Erich Maier, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Tarnopol, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 5245, Böhm, Oblt. Gerhard, , KG 51, , 9., gelbe G, 9K+GT, , , KIA with crew, cause unknown., Bo Gefr. Karl-Heinz Arens, Bf Uffz. Franz Lykar & Bs Gefr. Alois Bobinger, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Tarnopol, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 6234, Harmann, Ltn. Christoph, , KG 51, , 8., , 9K+AS, KB+SI, , KIA with crew, cause unknown., B Gefr. Ludwig Smolker, Bf Uffz. Hermann Plücker & Bs Fw. Fritz Knoch, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-, , n.n., , KG 51, , 9., , , , , Enemy fire. Bs WIA., Bs Uffz. Anton Rottbacher, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Buczacz, b, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 6296, Steinmetz, Oblt. Herbert (B)/Kärmer, Fw. Willi (F), , KG 51, , 8., , 9K+ES, , , Both KIA with crew, cause unknown., Bf Uffz. Werner Lehmann & Bs Uffz. Hermann Dittmer, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 8196, Hogger, Ltn. Josef, , KG 51, , II., , , , , WIA due to Flak. Bs also WIA., Bs Ogefr. Johann Lenska, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Pantalowice, b, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 5136, Amelung, Uffz. Heinrich, , KG 51, , 2., , 9K+FK, , , MIA with crew, cause unknown., Bo Uffz. Willibald König, Bf Uffz. Ernst Els & Bs Uffz. Ludwig Berg, DKiG?, Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 3171, STEMMLER, Oblt. Wilhelm, , KG 51, , 4., weiße A, 9K+AM, ND+DS, , Reported lost, cause unknown. F and Bo returned, Bf & Bm KIA., Bo Fw. Paul Stratenberg, Bf Ofw. Helmut Ludwig & Bm Ofw. Hermann Steglich, RK., Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 2373, Müller, Ltn. Gerhard, , KG 51, , 5., , 9K+GN, , , MIA with crew, cause unknown., Bo Gefr. Heinz Wulf, Bf Uffz. Wilhelm Gries & Bm Uffz. Johann Sergenfrei, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 8179, Stadelmeyer, Hptm. Fritz, , KG 51, II., Stab II., grüne I, 9K+IC, PC+QM, , KIA, cause unknown. B & Bf also KIA, Bm WIA., B Ltn. Wilfried Eschle, Bf Fw. Rudolf Döhring & Bm Flg. Erich Anders, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 4328, Schmidt, Ltn. Heinz, , KG 51, , 5., , 9K+CN, , , MIA with crew, cause unknown., Bo Uffz. Arno Fritze, Bf Gefr. Karl Rinagel & Bs Gefr. Walter Waske, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 2364, Spannheimer, Ofw. Rudolf, , KG 51, , 5., , 9K+HN, , , KIA, cause unknown. B & Bm also KIA, Bf MIA., B Stfw. Alfred Kress, Bf Ofw. Paul Schwerdt & Bm Ofw. Leonhard Wetthner, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 6143, Palmer, Fw. Wilhelm, , KG 51, II., II., , , CF+VM, , WIA due to enemy fire., , , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Krosno, b, F
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 5126, Evers, Uffz. Otto, , KG 51, , 9., gelbe C, 9K+CT, , , Reported lost, cause unknown. Crew returned WIA?, B Gefr. Karl Kutalek, Bf Uffz. Eberhard Holm & Bs Gefr. Kraus, F DKiG., Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, Medcalf, Ort unbekannt, 100%, F
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  #4  
Old 21st December 2010, 10:40
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Regarding the loss places, one may test the Volksbund database online:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche...ram_error=true

For example for this loss:
22-Jun-41, , Ju 88A-5, 5245, Böhm, Oblt. Gerhard, , KG 51, , 9., gelbe G, 9K+GT, , , KIA with crew, cause unknown., Bo Gefr. Karl-Heinz Arens, Bf Uffz. Franz Lykar & Bs Gefr. Alois Bobinger, , Lfl.4/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , Tarnopol, 100%, F

The death place of Oblt Gerhard Böhm is listed as 1 km n.w. Worona 18 km S.O.Stanislau, of Gefr. Karl-Heinz Arens as 1 km N. Warona, of Uffz. Franz Lykar as "B. Tarnopol, 1 km N.W. Worona" and of Gefr. Alois Bobinger as "Otyma 1km N.W. Worona 18 km S.O. Stanislau b. Tarnopol".

The next step will be to find the real place name, and how it is written in Polish rather in German.
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Old 21st December 2010, 13:53
Reiner Reiner is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Here are old postings:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=10393

Rene
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Old 21st December 2010, 23:07
thenelm thenelm is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Laurent, thanks for the added information. Its interesting that the remains of the crew seem to have been found scattered over an area of a couple of kilometers. Have to wonder if the aircraft blew up in flight or if the crew all bailed out and were killed in their chutes or on the ground.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 09:28
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41 not near Lvov

Thanks for this information, but it is difficoult to find, area of operation of KG 51 (I, II, III, + Stab, about 80 JU 88 ) only according place of crash on 22.06.41.

I think agai,n that airfileds, which were under attack of Ju 88s of KG 51 were not in the Lvov airfield's ring, but more on the south-east (like near Stanisławów, Tarnopol).

The losses were done by fighters from 64. IAD, and units had attacked (Polish names): Stryj, Buszow, Trembowla, Chodorów, Lisice (place of airfiled 64. IAD's regiments), which were set up near towns like: Tarnopol (where was field headquater of command South-Wester Front too), Stanisławów.

In my opinion these high losses could not be atributed to the fighters from Lvov area. There is very often given as there were sustained after attack on Kurovice airfiled (where was other regiment). It is false and wrong information.

Second: may you know the time of these losses. There were not sustained during one mission but during the two, dane versus two differen airfield location: 12. IAP and 149. IAP (I think so?)?


To Reiner. I think that there were dropted not only SD 2 but were other larger bombs too. For example the load of destroyer Me 110 were mixed as 96 SD 2 plus a few next SC 50 or SC 250 used agains airfileds.

SD 2 was too small to inflicted more real damage agains runway. It could be mixed armament, Ju 88 could carry such mix bombs load too.

Regards,
mirekw
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Old 22nd December 2010, 13:30
Reiner Reiner is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenelm View Post
Laurent, thanks for the added information. Its interesting that the remains of the crew seem to have been found scattered over an area of a couple of kilometers. Have to wonder if the aircraft blew up in flight or if the crew all bailed out and were killed in their chutes or on the ground.
That is a mistake,Thenelm!!
Ich antworte in deutscher Sprache, die liegt mir besser. Folgendes zum Verlust der Besatzung Oblt.Böhm.
Am 25.6.1942 führten Nachforschungen der Sonderkommission 3 des Reichskriminalpolizeiamtes zur Auffindung des Flugzeuges in einem Walde ,1km NW Worona, Gemeinde Otynia,(etwa18 km SO Stanislau). Das Kennzeichen war am Flugzeugbruch einwandfrei zu erkennen. Nach glaubwürdigen Aussagen der Einwohner von Worona stürzte das Flugzeug am 22.6.1941 in den frühen Morgenstundenab. Von der Besatzung erlagen zwei Mitglieder gleich danach an erlittenen Brandwunden.Die beiden anderen verstarben eine halbe Stunde später an Verletzungen, die sie durch die Explosion mitgeführter Munition davongetragen hatten.
Am Absturzort erscheinende NKWD-Beamte nahmen Ausweise und Wertsachen der Toten Flieger an sich. Die Beisetzung erfolgte durch Ortsbewohner von Worona in einem gemeinsamen Grab, das sich in gepflegtem Zustand auf dem dortigen Friedhof befindet.
An Mirek:
Die III./K.G.51 wurde vor dem Russlandfeldzug in Wiener-Neustadt für Schlachtfliegereinsätze mit der SD2 umgerüstet. Die SD2 wurde im Tiefflug , 25 bis 50 m Höhe, abgeworfen. Verwendet wurden Aufschlag- und Zeitzünder, das heißt die Bombe detonierte beim Aufprall auf dem Boden oder einige Meter darüber. Die Ju88 bekam spezielle Magazine in den Bombenschacht eingebaut. Diese nahmen 2X360 SD2 auf. Ziel der Tieffliegerangriffe waren die feindlichen Flugzeuge auf der Erde und nicht die Verwüstung der Fliegerhorste. Diese benötigte man ja später selbst.
Nach den verheerenden Verlusten in den ersten Kriegstagen wurden keine Schlachtfliegereinsätze mehr geflogen. Die SD2 verschwand aus dem Bestand der III.Gruppe.
Anbei einige Fotos der III./K.G.51 vom 22.6.1941.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 15:55
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Quote:
Die III./K.G.51 wurde vor dem Russlandfeldzug in Wiener-Neustadt für Schlachtfliegereinsätze mit der SD2 umgerüstet. Die SD2 wurde im Tiefflug , 25 bis 50 m Höhe, abgeworfen. Verwendet wurden Aufschlag- und Zeitzünder, das heißt die Bombe detonierte beim Aufprall auf dem Boden oder einige Meter darüber. Die Ju88 bekam spezielle Magazine in den Bombenschacht eingebaut. Diese nahmen 2X360 SD2 auf.
OK, I undrestand, but it is very strange that only SD 2 were used, when you look at SKG 210, Me 110 had used 96 SD-2 and + one bomb SC 250 or SC 500, it was more effective, then pnly 2 kg of SD-2 "devil's egg" , splinter bomb x 720.


"Schlachtfliegereinsätze mehr geflogen. Die SD2 verschwand aus dem Bestand der III.Gruppe.Anbei einige Fotos der III./K.G.51 vom 22.6.1941."

Are you sure, that these 4 photos are from III/KG 51? If yes could be good maching.
I have at least one aditional (done in flight above I-153).
I have published it 5 years ago in Poland my article about 22.06.41, there is from the collection of my friend T. Kopański. He had two such photos. The same "black" shadows of SD 2 upper. He had edited them in his book "Barbarossa Victims" 9 or so years ago.

This I-17 in one of it it was of cours Jak-1.

BTW. There were some explosion on some bombers due to some problems mechanizm problems with SD 2 on 22.06.10, not at all planes but, on a few types, they self-exploded, later it was improved and they were used again.
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Old 22nd December 2010, 18:36
Reiner Reiner is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Hallo Mirek!

Die Fotos sind zweifelsfrei von der III./K.G.51, denn sie sind aus dem Album von Oblt.Werner Poppenburg, der in der 7.Staffel flog.
Es ist eine Tatsache, dass die III./K.G.51 ihre ersten Einsätze im Russlandfeldzug mit SD2 flog. Für die beiden anderen Gruppen kann ich nicht sprechen.
Wo kann ich Deinen Artikel über den 22.6.1941 lesen? Wo finde ich "Barbarossa Victims"?

Rene
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